TOT-Chapter 9: The Gift of the Forestal

[kastenessen]

"I want you to unlock the knowledge for me. I want you to open my mind."
At the top of the eftmound, Infelice smiled.

Thus ended the previous chapter, with TC's request. Now Linden tries to persuade TC to not let them do it. She uses all arguments she can come up with, one is that they can tell him where The One Tree is. TC knows they wont do that. She tells him that they've got some secret purpose, she tells him that Foul got there ahead of them. TC questions Infelice and she denies it but instead asks that Linden enter his mind to gain the knowledge, a proposal that shocks Linden, that would be possession, and TC doesn't seem to care at all about what is said. He wants the location of the One Tree so badly because he wants to save the Land again.

A lot of reasoning is going on inside Linden and that ends with her hurting TC verbally. That doesn't help either, the more she hurt him, the more he was willing to go on...and at the moment he turns to Infelice Linden can hear through the bells Findail saying:

---Infelice consider! It is my life you hazard. If this path fails, I must bear the cost. Is there no other way?

Findails reaction shows that the Elohim are both divided about their paths and that their vision is incomplete, since they don't really know the outcome of their desicion, there seem to exist a lot of different roads (to the same end?)...then Infelice requests of Linden that she promises to take the ring from TC here and now before he destroys the Earth and to make Ring-wielder and Sun-Sage one:

"If you will not bind yourself to that promise, I must meet his request.

... of course Linden rejects that offer, and Infelice places her hand on TC's forehead...

And TC's scream becomes a scream of wild magic, and this time the magic pours from his forehead, not from his ring...the argent of the magic slowly fusion and changes into visions: we have seen them, the child TC saves in TIW, the Soothtell, the pained Land under the Sunbane and at the same time Joan with all diseases you can think of (don't remember this one from anywhere, she had leprosy at the end of TPTP though), TC saving himself during the Soothtell, then lifting the Krill on Glimmermere, then came TC's meeting with his dead in Andelain and the forestal touching his forehead with his staff...and the vision became night in Elemesnedene. We see stars and they become a map and show the way to the One Tree...and TC cries out, wailing...all the Elohim goes:

---It is accomplished!
Some of them where savage with victory. Others expressed a deep rue.

TC's mind had gone blank...

From the touch of Infelice, the visions and to the touch of the forestal on TC's forehead and the map, it's so brilliantly realised...and in a short phrase it says "But then the air became a tumult of bells, ringing in invocation, shaping the purpose of the Elohim; and the fire begin to change."...Is what we see a vision seen by the Elohim, or is it TC's vision as it was seen by the Elohim, or do the Elohim take hold of the white magic somehow and alter it, "shaping the purpose of the Elohim"...or does it just mean that this occasion shapes the purpose of the Elohim...or am I just nitpicking...?..questions...questions...

And again, after TC's silencing, we see the split among the Elohim. One question that can be asked during all "Elohim-chapters" is; if Lord Foul got to the Elohim and changed some of them somehow, what did he do? Could you say that the silencing of TC a work of his doing or did it take some other form, like Chant asking the ring of TC( but not suceeding)? Or just sowing this split among them. It doesn't feel like the silencing is his doing anyway, Foul want's TC to be able to destroy the AoT, not going around powerless doing nothing...

Ok, this was a very short chapter and it ended part I of the book. A lot of it consisted of Linden's perceptions of TC and the Elohim but there is more to come from Elemesnedene...I will post chapter 10 shortly...


kastenessen

[danlo]

Thanks kast! Great job!!!-but are you saying Joan had leprosy? Someone enlighten me please-somehow I don't remember that...

[duchess at work]

I think Kas is talking about the vision LF gave TC in their battle at the end of TPTP, where LF showed TC various persons from his life, including Joan, infected with leprosy.

[danlo]

oh, ah-I was editing kast's post so quickly I didn't pick up on that-sorry *smacks self in head *

[kastenessen]

I think Kas is talking about the vision LF gave TC in their battle at the end of TPTP, where LF showed TC various persons from his life, including Joan, infected with leprosy.

Yes, this was what I meant. I should have read it once more and discovered my vagueness...


kasten

[Seafoam Understone]

Short chapter indeed. Not too much to dissect ... or is there?
Linden had another opportunity to make a big difference but again that which she hates most rears it's ugly head and she refuses. Without taking in account as to just how-much it would help. She has her own selfishness issues.
TC is just too desperate at this point to even care about possible immediate consenquences. But as we've all observed he's lost much of his own selfishness (or has he?) because he knows people are dying back in the Land. But his own driven need to get answers and to complete his quest to save others makes him selfish. Paradox.
It's interesting to think of what/how the Haurachi would've interviened had they been there.
At least in this chapter we are beginning seeing the limits of seemingly limitless beings as the Elohim. That they cannot see the ends to the means.
Likewise we see the beginning of Findal's unceasing

Spoiler

self pitying moaning/mewling

.

[danlo]

On the correlary-TC is dying and at a rapid pace in our world and resistance isn't getting him anywhere quick...

[Dragonlily]

Linden had another opportunity to make a big difference but again that which she hates most rears it's ugly head and she refuses. Without taking in account as to just how-much it would help.

Yes. It was amazing for me to look back and realize how much pain Linden gave herself, by refusing to go into Covenant and get the answer when the Elohim offered her the opportunity.

But if she had accepted the opportunity when the Elohim had offered it, what would the Elohim have done? They still needed to make Covenant impervious to

Spoiler

Kasreyn somehow. Starfare's Gem would probably still have been damaged by the vicious storms and needed to put in to Bhrathairealm -- unless the Elohim managed to transfer Covenant's power to Linden against her will and Linden stopped the storms. That looks to me like the Elohim's only other option, and it was against their ethics to do so.

[Seafoam Understone]

Ack! Joy! Can't...reply... too big of a spoiler... a whole other discussion in-of-itself! Guess we'll have to wait until "that" particular topic comes up (officially in dissection) before hashing it out. oh brother the things we have to do... hee hee

[srtrout]

Seafoam was reluctant to reply re. Joy's "Spoiler" because it would give away too much. There's an inherent paradox for you: the basic subject is that of foreshadowing/prophecy/prediction; something in the Chronicles which is done to prevent something in the future that isn't readily known to the characters at the time it is done. To discuss anything being predicted , with knowledge of what eventually happens, is a spoiler. So, the subject of foreshadowing itself can't be fully discussed until the entire series is finished!

There are numerous examples of things that have huge repercussions later in the story; the rape which produces a major character, the venom Covenant gets from the spider, something that Vain gets on his arm (spoiler barely averted!).

So, and it's almost theological as with most of my posts, are there characters/forces/spirits that have "foreknowledge" in the Chronicles,
who are "prophets"? Surely the old man in our world knew he would send TC to The Land; did he "plan" that TC would commit rape and be envenomed? Did the Elohim really know that the crew would be heading to see Kaseryn and that they needed to do something to TC's mind first? Did Foul have some, although flawed, vision, of what was going to happen in the end of the second Chronicles?

Now, another thought to consider: How will all this play out when old SRD starts playing games with time itself !?!! Will that explain how such prophecy could occur? Or, and more likely, will it just mess it up??!!

srtrout

[matrixman]

Very good points, strout. Foreshadowing cannot be discussed, but only mentioned in a vaguely silly fashion: keep an eye on Vain, folks--nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more, say no more. I don't like having to tiptoe around potential spoilers when I post here in Dissecting. I wonder if this constraint partly accounts for the fewness of posts here, compared with the TC forum, which is a freer discussion area.

[Dragonlily]

I actually don't remember putting the "spoiler" on my last paragraph. Was it a moment of insanity on my part? Or did a mod put it on for me?

That branching of possibilities is something I would really like to discuss.

[duchess of malfi]

The reason there are spoilers in both of the group read forums is because there might be people reading along with us who are experiencing the books for the first time... We want to enhance their experience, not spoil their upcoming surprises.

Joy, it's possible that one of the mods put a spoiler on your other post...if they did there would be an "edited by..." down at the bottom of the post.

[Dragonlily]

Nope, looks like a moment of insanity on my part.

[danlo]

No no "edited" shows up when I (the mod) edit it-I did it-sorry I usually put in a note from myself but 4got to do it--I'm tempted to put a spoiler on Seafoam's too but won't. Duchess is right-this is the way it's always been since we started the dissection-that people have been posting more in TC Discussion-well they've always posted more there and the Dissection rule (not being able to spoil) has always lead to some great discussions in the TC forum-they usually compliment each other. Why people haven't been posting more in the Dissection lately is beyond me-but as the earlier books and chapters show folks come along reading the books and, eventually, always have great things to add. Dissecting or Group Reads are weird because they stand the test of time and people continue to contribute to them over months, or years-as opposed to the immediacy of TCTC Discussion form. So we DO have to assume that readers are following along for the first time...

[caamora]

Sorry, guys, I cannot do with without extensive use of spoilers!

Reading what Kast said about the vision from TC's forehead - it being what Troy had put there or what the Elohim envision:

Spoiler

Is is possible that the elohim took that opportunity to "force" the union of the Sun Sage and the White Gold? By putting TC into his "don't touch me" stupor and forcing LInden to take charge, do you think that the Elohim forced the death of Covenant (after all, he was the one they thought was unnecessary).

[Dragonlily]

Interesting thought, Caamora. But I think that if

Spoiler

they were going to "force" Covenant's choice to die, they would prefer to force him to hand the ring over to Linden, instead. It seems like less interference.

[caamora]

Spoilers!!!!!

Spoiler

Yes, but, like everything else in the Land, TC would have to "give" his ring to LInden. I don't think he could be forced to hand it over to her and I think that the Elohim know this. The white gold would be useless if he was forced to give his ring to her. This way, by forcing his death, he gives his ring to her of his own accord.

[kastenessen]

Sorry, guys, I cannot do with without extensive use of spoilers!

Reading what Kast said about the vision from TC's forehead - it being what Troy had put there or what the Elohim envision:

Spoiler

Is is possible that the elohim took that opportunity to "force" the union of the Sun Sage and the White Gold? By putting TC into his "don't touch me" stupor and forcing LInden to take charge, do you think that the Elohim forced the death of Covenant (after all, he was the one they thought was unnecessary).

You have a very interesting thought here caam! I must think on it before I say something else about it.

What is most mystifying with the Elohim and what makes it dificult to discuss without spoilers is that everything they say is directed forward in history. All of us who have read the second chrons know what happen. And everything they say has the most profound meaning. The question is: on what level do we stop? How deep goes their knowledge of what is taking place in the world? One thing is certain: they might be all-knowing, but they aren't wise. Not wise enough to understand that their vision of Sun-sage and Ring-Wielder might be incorrect. They had been waiting for the Sun-Sage being the Ring-Wielder coming there...

Spoiler

In the end they were right anyway.

kasten

[caamora]

But,

Spoiler

Were they really "right" or did they force the issue by "making" it happen?

I really have to stop this spoiler business!!! I get ahead of myself.

Also, Kast, excellent point: the Elohim lack wisdom.