can we tell the truth

[[Syl]]

On this act of "searching for faith", may I ask where such a search took place? If you were looking for it outside of your own inner soul, then it is no wonder you couldn't find it. It comes from within, it comes the heart. There is no "finding" it anywhere else. Faith isn't something that is instilled by the masses, or a preacher, or a book. It comes from God Himself, all that is required is an opening of your heart to recieve it from Him. And, from what I just read of your short post, I believe it is there.

The only Zen you find on the tops of mountains is the Zen you bring up there.

The fundamental delusion of humanity is to think that I am in here and everything else is out there.

So many unanswerables, so many contridictions, so many why's and how's and what's and who's. It is no wonder people lose faith or never "find" it to begin with. But those that do find it within themselves have no need for any of those answers. My brother used to say..."Why ask? No answer will come...

hear the cruel no-answer until blood drips down
beat your head against the wall of it

[Fist and Faith]

Again, I will state that Agnosticism is the stronghold of the logician as you cannot conclusively prove a negative or non-existence from lack of positive evidence.

Hooray for me!!

Is this the same person you invited to Stephen's thread? I would love to talk with him as well. He said what I tried to say so much better than I did.

*sigh* Alas, yes, the same guy. Kinda sad that he hasn't emailed that he read Stephen's thread.

I am an atheist, but I for a long time searched for faith and still wish I could have that. What I do believe is that if everyone lived by the teachings of Jesus, truly, lived the spirit of that law (lore?), rather than the letter of it, the world would be a greater, more peaceful and loving place for everyone. This would also be the case if we properly tried to follow the eight-fold path or felt the spirit in the Koran, to name only two. I have the utmost respect for those that endeavour to do so. I try to love everyone. I am a humanist.

Well said. That's how I am too. (Although I am not of the belief that there is no god/creator.) Jesus was a pretty slammin' guy, and, believe he was a higher being or not, following his message would make the world a better place. The Sermon on the Mount is pure genius.


Nice quotes Syl!

[Furls Fire]

awesome stuff Syl.

And Fist, that's too bad. I would love to hear his thoughts

[Bucky OHare]

I have to admit that i do not believe in the existence of any God. no one has satisfactorily answered the problem of evil for me:

random evil exists in the world, eg earthquakes, volcanoes etc that kill lots of people

However, God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, and is against evil.

Therefore, why does God allow bad things to happen?

[Fist and Faith]

The way I see it, GJ, there's always the possibility of a creator that is NOT omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.

[Revan]

I know I will probibly get shunned for this topic but here goes. I don't believe in god and there is to much preeching going on in this country. Allot more of the bible has been disproved then proved. Allot of the questions you ask religous poeple are dodged and never answered right. They wont accept the facts and they are really closed minded. So here is the topic. If you don't have complete faith in god here is the place to ask questions and if someone thinks they can answer it they can try.

I completely agree with you Sheol! Excellent post! No matter how much you prove to them that "G"od doesn't exist, they never accept it.

Yeah, and quit making a big deal about the uppercase god thing. Why does it matter? a pretty pathetic thing to argue about.

Therefore, why does God allow bad things to happen?

Most awful things (not talking about natural things like floods, earthquakes) are down to humans, Rape, killing, war. All down to humans. People should stop asking why God lets these things happen and look at themselves for once. And accept that it is they who are screwing up the world. Not God.

There’s no way of knowing if there isn’t a God.

The fact that there is no prove is prove enough to me.

Why doesn't God (If there is one) intervene and stop some of this crap that is destroying His beautiful creations?

Ok, can we all just agree that God didn't create the world in seven days please? I mean come on... In seven days Must have had one hell of a tool kit. *snort* Spare me, he didn't create earth. Moses made that up.

I've always thought the Moses, who wrote the five Gospels of the Old Testament was a story teller... Like Tolkien... and Wrote some stories. Sounds farfetched I know... But think about it, just because it was 7000 odd years ago, doesn't mean that people could come up with something creative.

And I grow weary of those believers that preach... I was in Ireland the other day, and this guy was up in my face about God. I told him, politely, that I don't believe in any "God". He looked at me like I was some bug, in comtempt, disgust. I mean how closed minded is that? I was close to asking him if he was Zeph. I dislike those believers that cannot empathize and respect those opinions of the unbelievers... Mind you, I don't understand the opinions of the believers... So I may be acting like a hypocrite... But I do respect those unbelievers opinions... even if I don't understand them. bah, I want pie.

[Loredoctor]

I am an atheist, but I for a long time searched for faith and still wish I could have that. What I do believe is that if everyone lived by the teachings of Jesus, truly, lived the spirit of that law (lore?), rather than the letter of it, the world would be a greater, more peaceful and loving place for everyone. This would also be the case if we properly tried to follow the eight-fold path or felt the spirit in the Koran, to name only two. I have the utmost respect for those that endeavour to do so. I try to love everyone. I am a humanist.

Well said, Emma. Agreed with everything you said.

[Furls Fire]

I completely agree with you Sheol! Excellent post! No matter how much you prove to them that "G"od doesn't exist, they never accept it.

What proof do you think you have against His existence, Darth?

[Jemmy Bloocher]

I completely agree with you Sheol! Excellent post! No matter how much you prove to them that "G"od doesn't exist, they never accept it.

What proof do you think you have against His existence, Darth?

I would be very interested to see this proof also.

[Revan]

I completely agree with you Sheol! Excellent post! No matter how much you prove to them that "G"od doesn't exist, they never accept it.

What proof do you think you have against His existence, Darth?

Proof that there is no God lies in the fact that there is no proof for him. Otherwise, as I have said before... I could believe in things like dragons. There is about as much proof in their existance than there is in Gods. NONE.

[Furls too lazy to login]

Ah, but there is Darth. It's all around you. My brother alone was "proof", (if that is the right word to use), that there is a God. Stephen talked to Him all the time. Jesus Christ is "proof" of God, Stephen talked to Him as well, (of course they are One in the same.) And, I talk to Him as well, and He always answers.

Futhermore, I resent this statement.. "No matter how much you prove to them that "G"od doesn't exist, they never accept it. " You have proven nothing to me, except for the fact that you, yourself, do not believe He exists. Which I respect, and I would never try to "prove" to you that He does exist. I can't do that, and frankly, I see no reason too. But, Darth, and you know I love you, don't go around trying to "prove" to me that He does not.

It's quite simple really. No one could ever sway me from my faith. I watched my brother live in God's Light from the time he was born, to the time he passed on. No one can tell me God does not exist, no one. He's here right now, I feel His Hand on my shoulder as I'm typing this. The walls of my house swell with His presence.

If it's "proof" you want, just open your heart and let Him in.

Would you believe Him if He came to you and said. "Hello, I'm God and My Light shines upon you." Would that be "proof" to you? Darth, He can't talk to you if you choose not to hear Him. Because I hear Him all the time, it's not always clear, but He points me to where I must go.

Anyway, I'm preaching, sermonizing...things I try not to do. I respect that you do not believe in God, Darth. But, please, don't try to "prove" He doesn't exist just because you believe He doesn't. Because, my love, you will fail to "prove" anything.

[Loredoctor]

That was a great post, Furls!

[GREEK TRAGEDY]

In another topic, UV describes that scientists are very close to finding the parts of the brain that stimulate feelings such as love and hate. Sooner or later, I have no doubt they will also find a part of the brain that stimulates the worship of a higher power. The fact that alternate stimuli in your lives and in your past have caused you to doubt said existence, does not sway me in the least. If we do find that such an area in the brain exists, it would at least point very strongly (in my mind) to the theory that God created us with the capacity for belief. Our failure to believe, then, would be no one's fault but our own experiences and our blindness to the truths around us. Those who have not been 'touched' by the Lord have the hardest time believing, making thier faith all the more precious. And as a friend once said, "Disbelief isn't wrong, it is a natural state of our existence to wonder if there is a God, and find ourselves wanting. It is non-belief that is wrong; refusing to believe in the miracle after it is shown to you."
I do not judge those of you who do not believe, the miracle isn't easy to see, I only scorn those who have felt God and rejected his Truth.

-B

[CovenantJr]

I don't believe in God, but I don't refuse to accept his existence either. My disbelief (if that is the correct term - I was going to say "lack of belief" but the word "lack" implies a shortcoming, and to me that is not the case) stems primarily from two things:

Firstly, I don't feel anything. I feel no watchful prescence, or communication from a creator of any kind (other than my parents, and that's not the same ). I don't claim that this is evidence that God doesn't exist, merely an absence of evidence to me that he does. Nor do I have any particular reason to believe God does not exist. Many times, atheists have said (and continue to say) "How can he allow suffering? How can he allow evil?" etc, and in my formative years I briefly subscribed to this idea. However, I have to coin an old cliche at this juncture: "The Lord moves in mysterious ways". I mention this because we have no reason or right to assume we understand how God works. Perhaps he can't interfere; perhaps he can, but won't for some good reason; perhaps any number of things. So nothing has yet disproved God's existence to my satisfaction either.

Secondly, and on more personal level, I don't like to surrender control of my life to anyone, even a benevolent creator. The thought that someone else potentially holds the strings doesn't sit well with me. Last Christmas, I went with a Christian friend to a carol service at Nottingham University Students' Union, and there was a short sermon of sorts from a man who works to introduce the Christian faith to young people. During this sermon, he (presumably believing he was "preaching to the converted") poured scorn on people of my attitude; he dismissed my dislike of renouncing control as a display of weakness (when I say "my", he was of course not speaking to me personally). This man strongly advocated giving up on determining our own path through life, instead going wherever the winds of God may blow us. This caused me to dislike Christianity for a while (a generalisation, yes, but I am human) - I see no strength in abdication of responsibility. I can see that it sometimes takes strength of faith, character, and possibly will, to trust in your God at all times. But this man actually condemned as weak and selfish any desire to determine your own future. My point is, I cannot and will not accept that my life is not entirely under my control. I strive to accept as much responsibility as I feasibly can for everything in my life, and I find it removes a lot of stress and irritation.

Well, I meandered to a typically unsatisfactory utter absence of a conclusion there, but I just felt like chipping in my two pennies

One final penny before I go: Not only do I not know whether God exists, I really don't care. I live my life by my own set of values, that feel right to me, and I will do so regardless of God's existence or non-existence. Perhaps this is a the reason I can't believe in God, or perhaps it is a symptom. Again, I neither know nor care. That no doubt sounds flippant and arrogant, but I can think of no other way to concisely explain my stance.

[Worm of Despite]

I agree with everything you said, CovJr. Great post. I too used to be one of those people that would "preach" atheism ("if there's a God why does all this bad stuff happen", etc.) I came to the Watch like that, in fact. I realized two things:

1) My choice of atheism was totally personal, and all these adamant, angry rants against God had nothing to do with my real feelings.
2) All said angry rants against God did about as much for me as Christianity.

I can't know for sure if a God is there, and I don't quite care either way. Even if God exists, I can't communicate with Him/Her, and there's never been any communication (real or imagined), so what's it matter?

[Baradakas]

Cov jr said:

This man strongly advocated giving up on determining our own path through life, instead going wherever the winds of God may blow us. This caused me to dislike Christianity for a while (a generalisation, yes, but I am human) - I see no strength in abdication of responsibility. I can see that it sometimes takes strength of faith, character, and possibly will, to trust in your God at all times. But this man actually condemned as weak and selfish any desire to determine your own future. My point is, I cannot and will not accept that my life is not entirely under my control.

It is Christians such as the man you mentioned, who sicken me. How can you preach such abdication, and still believe in the Free Will Doctrine? And no, I refuse to believe that my life is under God's control. Simply put, it isn't. I have the free will (as does everyone) to determine the path I will take. Every person must choose thier own path, even to the extent of unbelief. Sadly, I have met very few christians like myself, both accepting and forgiving those who a. do not share my views and b. those who condemn those different from themselves. Cov, I have always considered you a friend, and neither your beliefs nor mine would change that. You, Foul, Darth and the others have every right to your own beliefs, (or lack of them in the case of others) I do not advocate mainstream christianity, nor catholicism. I consider both to be purile mutations of the true Church, both unaccepting and unforgiving, the exact opposite of what Jesus advocated. It is my faith, which came hard, I must say, that is my own issue. What you believe, or don't, is no one else's business. I appreciate the fact that you are willing to share your thoughts with me, and I have nothing but respect for such honesty. Thank you.

-B

[CovenantJr]

Thank you for reading them, and for your response. You are a fine person.
Also, though I have already thanked Foul, I now do so publicly.

[Nathan]

My dad is a Jehovah's witness, so I was brought up to believe in a God that will (effectively) kill anyone who doesn't worship him. In the beginning I believed everything I was told because I love my dad and thought that anything he told me must be truth, especially if he so fervently believed it himself, but as I grew older and pre-teenage cynicism began to take hold (the same cynicism that stops people believing in Santa and monsters under the bed) I started to question the things he told me. Many people will not be familiar with Jehovah's witnesses and their beliefs so I'll give a quick overview:
They are a sect of christianity, but their beliefs differ in several vital ways:
1)They don't believe in the Trinity - Jesus is not God, they are 2 separate entities.
2)They don't believe in hell - anyone who doesn't worship God is put to eternal death rather than eternal torment because a loving God would not put people through eternal torment, the references to 'hell' in the bible were, apparently, misinterpreted by the majority of christians (or rather their leaders) to instil fear into the masses
3)They don't celebrate Christmas/birthdays/Easter/Halloween - These are pagan festivals and bad things were done on these days, for example Herod had John the baptist's head chopped off on his birthday
4)They follow the teachings of the bible right down to the letter, they even go as far as to knock on people's doors preaching to them. There are special members of each congregation (church) called pioneers who have to do at least 70 hours a month of preaching (or field service as the call it)

As you can see they're not your everyday Christian. They are far more serious about their religion. (sorry for the generalisation, I know many christians are just as serious, but EVERY Jehovah's witness does the things mentioned in part 4 (except the pioneer part))
Anyway, back to the point. As I started to question the things he told me I began to see flaws and loopholes, contradictions and fallacies. Ten years of going to their meetings (very boring meetings, and conventions too, lasting whole weekends. Those conventions were 6 hours a day of pure, mind-numbing dullness) had made me familiar with many aspects of their teaching, so I could quite often notice a place where two teachings contradicted one another. For example: God is omnipotent and omniscient and a few other omnis, yet he couldn't forsee that Adam would betray him? And more importantly he couldn't forsee that Satan would betray him? Seems very much like a mistake to me, for someone who is supposed to be infallible this is a very serious misdemeanour. Also, Adam and Eve were supposedly perfect - if they were perfect how come they made the mistake of eating from the tree of knowledge? There's the free will argument but Free will is not as important to God as it is claimed, after all he removed the free will of Ba'laam to curse Israel. Also, how can free will exist if God can see the future? If God already knows what you're going to choose then you're not free to choose anything else, God's omniscience denies any concept of free will.
I think I've ranted enough, I'll conclude by saying that I refuse to worship a God who is so arrogant that he'll kill people who have never harmed anyone just because they don't worship him. I refuse to worship a God who professes to be perfect and infallible but is not. I refuse to worship a God who claims to offer free will but then retracts it at a whim. Irefuse to believe in a God who will allow his created world to crumble to ruins just to PROVE A POINT!
The fact is, even if I did believe in God I wouldn't worship him, I don't think he's worth worshipping. I wish my dad had never become a Jehovah's witness. My life would have been so much happier, my parents wouldn't have gotten divorced, I wouldn't have wasted hundreds (possibly thousands) or hours of life sitting through boring meetings. I blame 'God' for this, I also blame my dad, and the people who converted him. But I can forgive them, they truly believe what they're doing, and they were tricked into it, influenced by other people. But God (if he does exist) is solely responsible for his actions. As the original entity he is influenced by nothing except his own creations (which by definition can only influence him in ways he has designed). God is responsible for everything that has ever happened. Good and bad. If there's anything worse than doing something wrong, it's doing something wrong then blaming it on someone else, which is precisely what God is trying to do. He creates an imperfect world, with imperfect beings to populate it, then blames the imperfection on the creations and punishes them for it. This is absolutely despicable, and how anyone can possibly uphold these actions as HOLY is absolutely beyond me.

[GREEK TRAGEDY]

Nathan said:

1)They don't believe in the Trinity - Jesus is not God, they are 2 separate entities.
2)They don't believe in hell - anyone who doesn't worship God is put to eternal death rather than eternal torment because a loving God would not put people through eternal torment, the references to 'hell' in the bible were, apparently, misinterpreted by the majority of christians (or rather their leaders) to instil fear into the masses
3)They don't celebrate Christmas/birthdays/Easter/Halloween - These are pagan festivals and bad things were done on these days, for example Herod had John the baptist's head chopped off on his birthday
4)They follow the teachings of the bible right down to the letter

Hmm, I'm not a Jehovah's witness, but I believe all of these things. I'm sorry you're experiences with religion have been so dismal, but I would like to extrapolate on your points, or rather, to defend the position you have so easily shaken.

God is omnipotent and omniscient and a few other omnis, yet he couldn't forsee that Adam would betray him? And more importantly he couldn't forsee that Satan would betray him? Seems very much like a mistake to me, for someone who is supposed to be infallible this is a very serious misdemeanour. Also, Adam and Eve were supposedly perfect - if they were perfect how come they made the mistake of eating from the tree of knowledge? There's the free will argument but Free will is not as important to God as it is claimed, after all he removed the free will of Ba'laam to curse Israel. Also, how can free will exist if God can see the future? If God already knows what you're going to choose then you're not free to choose anything else, God's omniscience denies any concept of free will.

In order: 1. He foresaw that both Adam and Satan would betray him. This was part of the Divine Plan, which was enacted before mankind ever came into being. 2. Adam and Eve were not perfect, for they were not allowed to eat from the tree of Knowledge or Life. When they ate from the tree of Knowledge they recieved true cognizance. 3. Ahh, Ba' laam. This caused me a problem or two as well, until I realized that the Spirit of the Lord (not the supposed Trinity spirit, but the Spirit of the Lord Himself), HAS to intervene in certain occurrences for His Will to be worked, and his Plan to come to fruition. It isnt as if He meddles in every aspect of our lives, only in the exact moment when He absolutely must. This does not deny free will, but proves once again that His creation is flawed, and that it was meant to be due to the influence of Satan. Lastly, I would like to mention that the Witnesses seem to have forgotten one important event in the Bible; the White Throne Judgement. Before God vengefully casts the unbelievers into a pit of flame (the second death), all those who a. were not a part of the first ressurection (aka the Saints) and b. did not have the chance to understand the Word of God in thier lifetime are given a second chance. The Lord and His Son reveal the True Word, and allow those ignorant of its truth to live one more time (the reason Satan is released 'for a short time' after the Millenium, which would mean that Satan is really nothing more than a tool) to try to live in God's grace. Yes, you heard me right, He gives us all a second chance!!! Only then does the Lord judge the wicked and destroys them forever. (seems He gives us all the grace we really need)

I think I've ranted enough, I'll conclude by saying that I refuse to worship a God who is so arrogant that he'll kill people who have never harmed anyone just because they don't worship him.

I saved this bit for last, mainly because I thought it was a bit skewed towards a cynical light and wanted to address it alone. I apologize if you're offended by this, but who are we to judge? This grand plan of his is truly just an opportunity for us to try to do it ourselves, to rule ourselves. Look what a great job we've done. He kills people? You mean more people than we (humans) have managed to slaughter over the last six thousand years or so? Ever seen an ant farm? Do ants kill, rape steal and lie to each other? Of course not. They have no intelligence nor free will to do such things. God created us as His children. As any wise father would, He is giving us the chance to do it ourselves. It's hardly His fault that He knew beforehand how it would turn out, now is it? Ever try to explain cause/effect to a stubborn child? They go and do what they want themselves, then they either learn from it, or they don't. Well, He gives us seven thousand years to figure it out, and He gives us Satan to test our dedication to living virtuous lives. If we fail to live up to the standard, what right do we have to judge Him? After our arrogance exceeds even that of Satan, he will punish us, and give us one last chance to amend our ways. If we fail yet again, He will destroy those who refused Him, and award His good children with life eternal.

Seems fair to me, and hardly spiteful or cruel.

It is a father's duty to raise his children to do good, and to repudiate evil. I think He's just doing His job, and taking responsibility for His creation, and I can't fault Him for that.

Again, I respect you're opinion, and truly hope you respect mine. I hope this doesn't feel like an attack, but your statements were more than just your beliefs, they were points designed to punch holes in faith, and I was just responding.

-B

[Worm of Despite]

2)They don't believe in hell - anyone who doesn't worship God is put to eternal death rather than eternal torment because a loving God would not put people through eternal torment

Oh, how nice of God.

I'm not being hateful (okay, maybe sarcastic). I'm just trying to understand the reasoning of God punishing his creations. Here's the story logic I see:

I spend my whole life a good person, raise a family, etc. But I don't worship God. Why? I have my personal reasons, etc. Maybe I'm unsure if there is a God. Who knows. But basically it boils down to this: because I don't adhere to a particular doctrine, I am punished eternally. This is a loving, merciful God, right?