Vain in WGW

[Forestal]

i just remembered this... in WGW when the first, pitchwife, hollier, sander, TC and LA are on their way to Andelain they encountered a swarm of ur-viles... and vain attacked them...

why?

[Sevothtarte]

That's Ur-Vile custom. They're not the kind to give hugs and flowers, they bash each other to show friendliness.

No? Serious, he wanted to protect Covenant and Linden.

[Forestal]

that mayb so, but it does say that he appeared unaware of TC and LA... and that he seemed 2 have his own agenda...

my thoughts were that was the ur-viles were deformed by the sunbane he was going 2 put them out of their misery?

but i was looking 4 other opinions on this...

[[Syl]]

he seemed to always be aware of Linden (literally pulled her bacon out of the fire), perhaps Covenant as well (except that he thought Covenant could defend himself if it ever came right down to it, so no need to interfere). how i remember it, anyway.

[Forestal]

i guess so...

perhaps i was reading too far in2 it...

[danlo]

I'll have 2 research, but IIRC, there was natural animosity between demondim-spawn and Vain, like SHFF, who was created in a much different fashion and became kinda a "Pure One". My own theory is that, somehow, some of the decent ancient lore of the Viles (Demondim) was passed in2 the creation of Vain. So that vs. the wrapping and nasty Ur-vile lore sets up a natural conflict...

[fightingmyinstincts]

It said something about him radiating anger or being angry in some way...I think he was angry at their violation by tge sunbaneand their servitude to Foul and so he attacked them. Maybe to defend the party as well....

[birdandbear]

Linden seemed to feel quite clearly that Vain was angry at the corruption of his creators.

She sensed that he had attacked the ur-viles for his own reasons, not to aid or even acknowledge the company

and then at the crux of his purpose:

He was rigid and murderous, blind to any concerns but his own. But because he had been given to Covenant by foamfollower - because he had bowed to her once - because he had saved her life - and because he had met with anger the warping of his makers - she did what he asked.

Vain is such an intriguing character (pseudo-character?) to me. I've always wondered how much, if anything, is going on behind that ambiguous smile. He can feel anger, does he feel anything else? Or does he even percieve whats going on around him in any kind of recognizable conscious form? And going back to the loincloth thing ( ) I really have always wondered how perfect is perfect? Considering that the primary thing both the waynhim and the ur-viles (and the Jheherrin) abhorred about themselves was that they were made beings, instead of naturally born - would they then endow the culmination of all their Lore, all their thwarted striving for perfection, with at least the physical semblance of a naturally born creature?

[danlo]

b&b? W/the use of certain words in ur post such as "endowed", "lioncloth" & and "rigid" could it b u r feeling a tad "frisky" 2day?

[Damelon]

Weren't the Ur-Viles they encountered in WGW warped by the Sunbane? Vain being "perfect law" would have acted against what was the imperfect law of the Sunbane warping his own kind.

[fightingmyinstincts]

Exactly! *agrees vigorously w/Damelon*
And about that loincloth....

[Ryzel]

I have just read the WGW and would like to comment on this now.

It is true as Damelon said that the Ur-viles they encountered on their way to Andelain had been warped by the Sun-Bane. This was probably Fouls way of punishing them for making Vain in the first place, as well as yet another way of him tightening the noose around TC's neck.

What makes the event special is that as far as I can remember it is the only time that Vain ever did anything that was not motivated by either working towards his ultimate purpose or simple self preservation. Except for the time TC used the "Nekhrimah" word.

It is stated quite clearly that this was the only time Linden had ever felt any emotion from Vain at all, and the emotion that she felt was anger. Quite simply he attacked the Ur-Viles because he was angry. He did not wait until the party was in trouble, like he usually did before doing anything, he just charged them. This precipitated the events that led to the breaking of the law of life, but this was NOT a necessary part of his purpose.

[Forestal]

. This precipitated the events that led to the breaking of the law of life, but this was NOT a necessary part of his purpose.

but perhaps it was.... for in order for linden to create the staff of law covenant had to get rid of foul, and to get rid of foul, he had to be dead and if he were dead he couldn't do nething, without the law of life being broken.

if he hadn't attacked them, they would surely have all been killed by the ur-viles, and therefore, the law of life wouldn't b broken, covenant wouldn't get rid of foul and vain's purpose would go out the window.

[Ryzel]

but perhaps it was.... for in order for linden to create the staff of law covenant had to get rid of foul, and to get rid of foul, he had to be dead and if he were dead he couldn't do nething, without the law of life being broken.

You are correct in that it would be meaningless for Linden to create a new staff of law without first removing Lord Foul.

But I find no reason to believe that it Vain knew that the law had to be broken for TC to overcome Foul. If Vain had that kind of proactive ability/foresight he would probably have acted differently in several other situations where TC were threatened. Most particularly at TOT, I would think. As he did not I have to conclude that he did not have that kind of foresight and thus did not do this because of the ultimate consequences.

[amokzlore]

Vain attacked the sun-warped ur-viles in WGW. Vain was made by the ur-viles as the quintessential ur-vile, perfection. His function/purpose was to supplement Findail's ultimate Power with his perfect Structure (in order to create the new Staff of Law). Donaldson probably included this event in order to portray a physical situation, mirroring the theoretical self-loathing of the ur-viles, in which the millenia of frustration can be physically encountered and resolved by what the ur-viles always wanted to be (see, hard work does pay off).

[Forestal]

But I find no reason to believe that it Vain knew that the law had to be broken for TC to overcome Foul. If Vain had that kind of proactive ability/foresight he would probably have acted differently in several other situations where TC were threatened. Most particularly at TOT, I would think. As he did not I have to conclude that he did not have that kind of foresight and thus did not do this because of the ultimate consequences.

but, at TOT, if vain had foresight, he would know that seadreamer would get himself killed for him... and perhaps vain was unable at TOT, because he is lore, and he would awaken the worm of lands end

there are many things about vain there were just not well enough explored.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

Just a sarcastic opinion here: because SRD needed a filler, not really having much idea what he would write in WGW, and like the Arguleh, Sunburnt Ur-Viles seemed cool, and then we could see our boy, Vain, open his dark can!

[AjK]

Ahh, a nice older thread about Vain! It looks like some people were curious about Vain's foresight and some were curious about Vain's foreskin. To each their own.

I also felt (as others mentioned above) that Vain's angry attack was in response to the warping of the ur-viles. I am not sure how this response fit in with his purpose. In other words if he was "made" to become the next staff why would he have been given the capability to be angry about the plight of the sunbane-warped ur-viles? He was pretty single-minded in pursuit of his ultimate purpose so any action he took should be evaluated in that light, IMO. I haven't read the entire GI yet ( blasphemer!) so I may not be aware of any SRD hints yet.

Regarding comments about the ur-viles' self loathing at being "made" creatures, I found it interesting that Vain represented an evolution past that view. He was perfectly (no pun intended) fine with what he was. "It is not death. It is purpose." I loved that line.

then we could see our boy, Vain, open his dark can!

I don't even want to know what that is a euphemism for.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

The Dark, Vitriolic Can of Whoop-Ass!!!