Is Political Correctness Evolving .....

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Is Political Correctness Evolving .....

Post by peter »

....into a subtle form of fascism?

I don't know about you guys, but I'm finding it increasingly difficult to express many of the things I'd like to say for fear of causing offence to the apparently paper thin sensitivities of the PC brigade.

By simply posting the above, it will be thought by many "Ahh yes - he has lots of putrid anti-[put your particular discriminated against group of choice in here] sentiments in him which he hides under a cloak of open-mindedness" - but seriously - I don't!

Here's an example of what I'm on about. When I was a kid we used to tell jokes. Lots of them were racist/sexist/homophobic to those with ears to hear them that way .... but in reality they weren't. They were simply meant to be funny - and they were. They had 'turns' in them that were often really clever - and that is what makes a joke funny. It's not about denigrating women or coloured people. It's not about branding the Irish as stupid or Jewish people as mean. Sure, it's using a stereotype caricature for laughs, but no-one with the sense above that of a flea believes that stereotype. Yet here's the list of things contained in a declaration that a comedian about to play a gig at a UK university was asked to sign. It ran as follows
By signing this contract you are agreeing to our no-tolerance policy with regards to racism, sexism, classism, ageism, ableism, homophobia, biphobia, transphobia, xenophobia, islamophobia, anti-religion or anti-atheism.
It seems so ridiculous as to be funny and it goes without saying that the comedian cancelled the gig on the grounds that he simply could not perform a show under such constraints - but in reality it isn't funny at all. I absolutely get that all of these forms of discrimination exist - and need to be rooted out and exposed for the pernicious doctrines they are - but this is not the way to do it.

And the effects of this shift run much deeper than a comedian not being given the freedom to offend in his act. The effect is in the thousands of little times a day that people don't say what they think - and don't say it out of fear - fear of reprisal, fear of recrimination. And in the fact that the very freedoms that the 'victim-groups' have won, the gains that have been made in the area of eliminating prejudice, are a direct result of the very freedoms of speech, of thought, that this pc shackling attempts to curtail. You will never end prejudice of any kind by grinding it under the heel of fear imposed constraint; you will end it by laughing at it. By laughing at it fully exposed, alongside the people toward whom it is directed.
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Post by wayfriend »

If you never take a shower or a bath, people will avoid you. Does this take away your right to not bathe? (Are the people who claim it does sincere?)

If you find out that something you thought was innocuous and harmless turns out to be harmful to others (like, for example, smoking), is your main concern how avoiding harming others puts a kink in your day? Are you so tied to your behavior that you argue away the harm?
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Post by Zarathustra »

Jokes don't harm people. I can't believe that's being compared to smoking! lol.

Even innocuous comedians like Seinfeld have said that he will no longer do shows at colleges, because the students are so sensitive and brainwashed by political correctness.
By signing this contract you are agreeing to our no-tolerance policy with regards to racism, sexism, classism, ageism, ableism, homophobia, biphobia, transphobia, xenophobia, islamophobia, anti-religion or anti-atheism.

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Post by Vraith »

I'm not gonna really get into this much. Just rant a bit for fun.
Seinfeld is lying...he won't do colleges cuz he isn't funny and he costs too damn much money [ditto Chris Rock and a bunch of others]...
But even if I'm confused about that...
If you think political correctness is ruining things....
You have a serious fucking failure with factual correctness...
PERIOD.

[[direct connection fact====comedy-related stuff--films, clubs, lit, all of it, is a GROWING profit industry, and all the money comes from the younger half, not the piss-tard snow-fuck-heads in charge.]]

They aren't letting "you" be funny about "them"...they're making fun of "you" and "you" are an ass hat and a wimp.
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Post by wayfriend »

Jokes harm people when they normalize the racial stereotyping that leads to very real and very harmful repression. E.g. Perpetuating the myth that Native Americans are lazy leads to underemployed Native Americans.

Peter should really ask himself why, if those jokes weren't about denigrating certain people, they had to involve those people in the first place.

"Political Correctness" is propaganda. It's a derogatory term applied to something so that people can lie about it what it means, and create myths about it's motives, all while not mentioning what it really is, and encouraging us to not understand it's true import. You can tell because the lies and myths lead to (as they always do) conspiracy theories about a "they" who somehow have "control" and who must be "fought". But it's really just the current winners in the status quo fighting evolving ideas of morality.

Ideas about morality change. Social pressures shift. This is normal.

I bet the Elizabethans complained about the "Clean Police" when social mores changed and people were expected to bathe more frequently.

Social media has amplified social pressures in ways I find disturbing. We are in the Age of Cyber Bullying, and so-called Political Correctness is as ready a weapon as any other. (You can distinguish the bullies from those truly interested in promoting a better society rather easily: agree with them about something. One will punish you for it, the other will reward you.)

But this doesn't mean that recognizing how we harm others by perpetuating myths about them is without merit. It only means that anything can be misused and abused.
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I

Post by peter »

Mmmm......

:lol:

We'll - what matters is what you do, not whose name it is done in. Just go out there and be kind; it'll be enough.

;)

But I don't think there is a 'they' out there - I just think it's possible that there is a risk of it becoming a Frankenstein monster that turns to bite it's unwitting creator. How do we stop it becoming - of it's own volition, mind you - a self imposed form of 'thought policing'? If I don't believe something to be true, should I not be able to freely say so without fear that what I say may be twisted beyond my original meaning and turned back upon me, whence the power of the baying twiteratee will be given full reign to publically eviscerate me? This happens - trial by internet is with us now and is a powerful weapon in the hands of 'the mob', and if you express any opinion at odds with the mainstream 'liberal democratic' world-view, you'll soon find out the precision with which it can be wielded.

[This is not about 'jokes' by the way folks; by some miracle I managed to come through that period of intense brainwashing in the arts of misogyny, homophobia, racism and xenophobia represented by the telling of a gag, to emerge with a pretty healthy respect for all the various groups of people I encounter, and a general liking and interest in anyone I happen to come accross. Oddly it would seem, so did all the people of my generation who I meet; if there is so much 'hatred and bigotry' out there amongst my age cohort, I don't often seem to encounter it?]
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Post by Skyweir »

wayfriend wrote:Jokes harm people when they normalize the racial stereotyping that leads to very real and very harmful repression. E.g. Perpetuating the myth that Native Americans are lazy leads to underemployed Native Americans.
This ^

Pete, I hear what you are saying. It seems ridiculous.. like that dog the dude taught him the fascist salute. Stupid yes .. but worthy of prosecution, not really.

I agree that political correctness does seem extreme at times. But its an aspiration, and as Wayfriend said, arguably not without merit. If the aspiration is about becoming less exclusive as a society and more inclusive.

Wayfriend wrote:Political Correctness" is propaganda. It's a derogatory term applied to something so that people can lie about it what it means, and create myths about it's motives, all while not mentioning what it really is, and encouraging us to not understand it's true import. You can tell because the lies and myths lead to (as they always do) conspiracy theories about a "they" who somehow have "control" and who must be "fought". But it's really just the current winners in the status quo fighting evolving ideas of morality.
I like and agree with much of this
Wayfriend wrote:Ideas about morality change. Social pressures shift. This is normal.

I bet the Elizabethans complained about the "Clean Police" when social mores changed and people were expected to bathe more frequently.
Wayfriend wrote:Social media has amplified social pressures in ways I find disturbing. We are in the Age of Cyber Bullying, and so-called Political Correctness is as ready a weapon as any other. (You can distinguish the bullies from those truly interested in promoting a better society rather easily: agree with them about something. One will punish you for it, the other will reward you.)

But this doesn't mean that recognizing how we harm others by perpetuating myths about them is without merit. It only means that anything can be misused and abused.
This is true social media has become a platform for bullying behaviour. Which is sad. Especially harmful to the particularly vulnerable, youth and the marginalised.
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Re: I

Post by Skyweir »

peter wrote:Mmmm......

:lol:

We'll - what matters is what you do, not whose name it is done in. Just go out there and be kind; it'll be enough.

;)

But I don't think there is a 'they' out there - I just think it's possible that there is a risk of it becoming a Frankenstein monster that turns to bite it's unwitting creator. How do we stop it becoming - of it's own volition, mind you - a self imposed form of 'thought policing'? If I don't believe something to be true, should I not be able to freely say so without fear that what I say may be twisted beyond my original meaning and turned back upon me, whence the power of the baying twiteratee will be given full reign to publically eviscerate me? This happens - trial by internet is with us now and is a powerful weapon in the hands of 'the mob', and if you express any opinion at odds with the mainstream 'liberal democratic' world-view, you'll soon find out the precision with which it can be wielded.

[This is not about 'jokes' by the way folks; by some miracle I managed to come through that period of intense brainwashing in the arts of misogyny, homophobia, racism and xenophobia represented by the telling of a gag, to emerge with a pretty healthy respect for all the various groups of people I encounter, and a general liking and interest in anyone I happen to come accross. Oddly it would seem, so did all the people of my generation who I meet; if there is so much 'hatred and bigotry' out there amongst my age cohort, I don't often seem to encounter it?]
I would not imagine you would Pete. And I dont think its an agist issue either.

Interesting that you would claim that PCness is a tool to be wielded by the liberal democratic. As this may seem reasonable, its not entirely accurate. Both sides of politics use it to further their individual agendas.

I think there is value in PCness as an aspiration .. a standard to which we can apply appropriate behaviour.

What is sad is that it seems to mean that we cant laugh at ourselves. But I will say its not a particular aspiration that individual humans have to comply with in their private lives. Its influence is felt more acutely in public fora, government, media, community etc.

In such fora I dont see it as inherently undesirable tbh.
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Post by Ur Dead »

Political Correctness is not evolving.
It is rapidly mutating.
Evolving takes time, mutation is in a blink.
Who knows what it is going to eat.
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Post by Zarathustra »

Skyweir wrote:
wayfriend wrote:Jokes harm people when they normalize the racial stereotyping that leads to very real and very harmful repression. E.g. Perpetuating the myth that Native Americans are lazy leads to underemployed Native Americans.
This ^
I double-dog-dare either of you to show a direct causal relationship between jokes and underemployment.

I don't believe that the PC movement has much to do with preventing the perpetuation of racial stereotypes, much less making sure that people have jobs. It's about protecting people's feelings from offense. Are black people harmed when you don't call them "African Americans?" Does this failure to use this PC term cause them to not get a job? Why is "black" offensive, but "white" is not? Which stereotype is this perpetuating? That black people have dark skin?? They do!
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Post by wayfriend »

Zarathustra wrote:It's about protecting people's feelings from offense.
Myth. Not fact.
dictionary.com wrote:the avoidance, often considered as taken to extremes, of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against.
Britannica wrote:Linguistically, the practice of what is called "political correctness" seems to be rooted in a desire to eliminate exclusion of various identity groups based on language usage.
Vox wrote:But political correctness isn't a "creed" at all. Rather it's a sort of catch-all term we apply to people who ask for more sensitivity to a particular cause than we're willing to give - a way to dismiss issues as frivolous in order to justify ignoring them. Worse, the charge of "political correctness" is often used by those in a position of privilege to silence debates raised by marginalized people - to say that their concerns don't deserve to be voiced, much less addressed.
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Post by Zarathustra »

Cambridge Dictionary wrote:Someone who is politically correct believes that language and actions that could be offensive to others, especially those relating to sex and race, should be avoided.

​
A politically correct word or expression is used instead of another one to avoid being offensive:
Oxford Dictionary wrote:The avoidance of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against.
Merriam-Webster wrote:: conforming to a belief that language and practices which could offend political sensibilities (as in matters of sex or race) should be eliminated
Fact. Not myth.
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Post by peter »

Ur Dead wrote:Political Correctness is not evolving.
It is rapidly mutating.
Evolving takes time, mutation is in a blink.
Who knows what it is going to eat.
This, I think, is getting to it. Of course we don't want to go around egregiously offending people - ordinary common decency should tell us this - but taken to extremes, as in the case of the strictures placed on that comedian cited above, I think it ceases to be positive in its effect. And I'm not sure if it serves any real purpose anyway. Take for example the case of homosexuality. Huge strides have been made since my youth in acceptance of the gay community as an integral and valuable part of our societies, but I don't think this has one iota to do with the adoption of pc modes of behaviour has it? Surely the credit for this must go to the gay community itself - the brave souls who had the courage to stand up and demand that society confront it's prejudice......justify it in the face of the dignity and plain simple rightness of their desire to live as they saw fit - to love who they chose. It didn't take suppression of thought, of behaviour to achieve this. On the contrary, it took liberation.
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Post by Skyweir »

I think from both Zs dictionary examples and wayfriends it is clear that PCness is about being conscious of the words used in speech and writing. Its aims are to counter social exclusivity and promote social inclusivity.

Theres a subtle difference in its purpose between 1. Safeguarding feelings and 2. Not being offensive.

And tbh protecting peoples feelings is not a bad thing at all imho. I would hate the thought that something I said hurt someone .. and I have myself used hurtful language in my life and ALWAYS regretted words spoken in haste and without measure.

I find nothing wrong with the principle of being respectful .. AND in the right company you can swear and jibe in fun and no one expects offence.

Is PCness evolving? Why wouldnt it? Everything evolves, grows, changes, devolves even. It it mutating into a Frankensteins monster? Well that depends on the user, how it is used and why it is used.

But everyone here has the requisite nowse to distinguish those differences.

Sometimes people act as if PCness is the enemy to reason .. its not. It is not required to surrender reason in order to be politically correct. Ive worked in male dominated workplaces in male dominated fields my whole life. Sexism is still alive and well. PCness might seem like an end to discrimination but its a reminder, a guide to consider ones bias, bigotry, particularly in public.

The comedian thing, might seem stupid .. and tbh I think it might be .. but if youre a comedian worth your salt, expand and diversify your material. Its not an impediment once you know the parameters. And tbh its not at all inappropriate.

Given the aim is to promote inclusivity. I love stand up and not many .. here at least .. take jabs at anyone than ourselves. The exception is always high profile idiots for their idiocy. Sadly for them THEY are the tall poppies that make excellent targets. Que sera sera.

I love a good laugh ... nothing better. Good comedians will always find good material and make you laugh. Nothing better.
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Post by Zarathustra »

From the New York Times: Morality clauses in writers' contracts put careers in the hands of the PC police.
This past year, regular contributors to Conde Nast magazines started spotting a new paragraph in their yearly contracts. It's a doozy. If, in the company's "sole judgment," the clause states, the writer "becomes the subject of public disrepute, contempt, complaints or scandals," Conde Nast can terminate the agreement. In other words, a writer need not have done anything wrong; she need only become scandalous. In the age of the Twitter mob, that could mean simply writing or saying something that offends some group of strident tweeters.

Agents hate morality clauses because terms like "public condemnation" are vague and open to abuse, especially if a publisher is looking for an excuse to back out of its contractual obligations. When I asked writers about morality clauses, on the other hand, most of them had no idea what I was talking about. You'd be surprised at how many don't read the small print.

. . .

Jeannie Suk Gersen, a Harvard Law School professor who writes regularly for The New Yorker, a Conde Nast magazine, read the small print, too, and thought: "No way. I'm not signing that." Ms. Gersen, an expert in the laws regulating sexuality, often takes stands that may offend the magazine's liberal readers, as when she defended Education Secretary Betsy DeVos's rollback of Obama-era rules on campus sexual-assault accusations. When I called Ms. Gersen in November, she said, "No person who is engaged in creative expressive activity should be signing one of these."

It's not that a company should have to keep on staff a murderer or rapist, she added. But when the trigger for termination could be a Twitter storm or a letter-writing campaign, she said, "I think it would have a very significant chilling effect."

. . .

The problem with letting publishers back out of contracts with noncelebrity, nonreligious, non-children's book authors on the grounds of immorality is that immorality is a slippery concept. Publishers have little incentive to clarify what they mean by it, and the public is fickle in what it takes umbrage at.

In 1947, the concern was Communism, and morality clauses gave studios a way to blacklist the Hollywood 10, a group of directors and screenwriters who denounced the House Un-American Activities Committee as illegitimate and refused to say whether they'd ever been Communists. All 10 went to jail, and all but one, who decided to cooperate with the committee, became unemployable until the 1960s, though some continued to write under pseudonyms.

Not long ago, publishers were hailed as countercultural heroes for backing works that offended public sensibilities. Barney Rosset, the publisher of Grove Press, introduced Americans to Samuel Beckett, Jack Kerouac, Malcolm X, Marguerite Duras and Kathy Acker, among scores of other writers considered avant-garde at the time.

Mr. Rosset fought doggedly to overturn laws that were preventing him from publishing D.H. Lawrence's "Lady Chatterley's Lover" and Henry Miller's "Tropic of Cancer," both of which contained scenes of graphic sex. The "Tropic of Cancer" case made it to the Supreme Court, which ruled that the book was not obscene. The feminist critic Kate Millet attacked Henry Miller's novels as misogynistic - she was quite right about that - but that didn't stop the PEN American Center from awarding Mr. Rosset a citation for "the free transmission of the printed word across the barriers of poverty, ignorance, censorship and repression."

Times change; norms change with them. Morality clauses hand the power to censor to publishers, not the government, so they don't violate the constitutional right to free speech. But that power is still dangerous.

Still think that worries over PC are silly, Vraith? Try publishing your novel and then have your publisher cancel the contract because of rants you've posted on Kevin's Watch! All it takes is for a small group of people to be offended by something you've said, and your career could be over--despite a contractual agreement!

As the article points out, publishers used to be praised for pushing social norms and offending sensibilities. These efforts often led to legal battles that went all the way to the Supreme Court, where legal victories in favor of free speech were hard won. But now publishers are becoming the censors, giving up the very victories they once enabled.

And what is the difference now? The difference is one of politics. When censorship affects people on the Left, they fight back--as history has shown. When censorship affects people on the Right, the Left becomes the oppressors. The only reason people let themselves think that the PC issue is insignificant now is because they imagine that it doesn't affect them, only their ideological opponents. But this is so mind-bogglingly foolish, I can't believe that smart people are lulled into this reasoning. (Never underestimate the power of us-vs-them thinking!) Liberals *are* being censored by soft-minded, easily offended snowflakes. Just because the most prominent examples are comedians, don't be lulled into thinking that it's a laughing matter. Imagine if Colbert or Kimmel had their contracts yanked because they offended the Religious Right! Think of the chilling effect this would have on political discourse that certain political views can't be mocked.

I believe that anyone can be fired for any reason. No one is guaranteed a job. But some jobs, like writing, are a risky business where the rewards are often not seen until months or years after the work has been done. This is why contracts are necessary in such industries. Both parties are taking a risk, publisher and writer. Both should have some kinds of protections. And a legal agreement to do business shouldn't be terminated merely because some snowflakes get their panties in a wad on Twitter. Freedom of expression should not be hindered by the fear of offending people. Imagine if Donaldson's portrayal of rape caused feminists to launch a campaign against him that ended his career! Liberalism is conditioning our culture to be a bunch of whiners and cry babies. And the danger of putting our culture and careers in the hands of the weakest, most closed minded people among us is FAR greater than Donaldson's fears of an "anti-intellectual" society. It's the self-proclaimed "intellectuals" at universities that are causing this shift into stifling free speech!
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Post by Wosbald »

+JMJ+
Zarathustra wrote:[...]

And the danger of putting our culture and careers in the hands of the weakest, most closed minded people among us is FAR greater than Donaldson's fears of an "anti-intellectual" society. It's the self-proclaimed "intellectuals" at universities that are causing this shift into stifling free speech!
One can be an academic and still be Anti-Intellectual, inasmuch as one grounds one's metaphysic in Will (i.e. Voluntarism) to the exclusion of Intellect.

Which is why Nietzsche was an Anti-Intellectualist, even though he was, nevertheless, "an intellectual".
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Post by Skyweir »

Beautifully put Wos πŸ‘Œ
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Post by Vraith »

Zarathustra wrote:

Still think that worries over PC are silly, Vraith?
Nah, not silly.
What I think is it's overblown to some extent [[this shit has been going on for 200 fucking years...the biggest difference, the one that really matters right here, right now, is the chief threat to speech is the chief executive...and people who hate PC love the shit out of that reeking ooze]]
What else I think is that those who think [and it seems to be most of them] That "PC" is a
1)Violent
2)Oppressive
3)Leftist
4)Liberal college indoctinative
5)Ignorant/naive/Snowflakes
6)Anti-american/Speech/Freedom
7)Existential and immediate threat to CIVILIZATION.
[[Usually All the Above are meant]]

Are mostly:
Violent
Oppressive
Rightist
Conservative God and Anec-doctrinated pseudo-martyrs.
Un-american/Sloganized/Powerdom
Existential Flu-always infective and around, occasionally lethal pandemic.

Don't like my categorizing/clustering? Think they don't describe real groups/society/power structures? Think it doesn't fairly address the problem/topic?
To some extent, that would be correct.
So you should stop doing it.
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Post by Cail »

The difference is that we're giving concrete examples and you're.....Well, you're typing a lot of words. The chief executive has silenced no one, so not sure where that one's coming from.

You'll be hard-pressed to cite a contemporary example of conservatives silencing any speech, or publicly intimidating speakers that don't agree with them.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Vraith
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Post by Vraith »

Cail wrote:
You'll be hard-pressed to cite a contemporary example of conservatives silencing any speech, or publicly intimidating speakers that don't agree with them.
Seriously? It's on tape happening at Trump rallies. A-fucking-LOT.

The neo's have literally started fights and faked the evidence to blame the counters. [[and the cops have busted journalists...100 or so of them...but not the Conservative ones.]]

Even FIRE identifies 30% of campus speech troubles as coming from the right [[and they don't include private religious universities AT ALL, even though none of them have ever had even a moderate, let alone liberal, speaker EVER.]]
The reason is our old friend "We're private---fuck the libtards."
BUT they're still allowed to get gov't backing/aid.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
the difference between evidence and sources: whether they come from the horse's mouth or a horse's ass.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
the hyperbole is a beauty...for we are then allowed to say a little more than the truth...and language is more efficient when it goes beyond reality than when it stops short of it.
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