Joseph Campbell and Covenant

A place to discuss the books in the FC and SC. *Please Note* No LC spoilers allowed in this forum. Do so in the forum below.

Moderators: Orlion, kevinswatch

Post Reply
User avatar
Tulizar
Bloodguard
Posts: 839
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2003 7:36 am
Location: Swamps of Jersey

Joseph Campbell and Covenant

Post by Tulizar »

dlbpharmd wrote:

What are your thoughts concerning Joseph Campbell's The Hero's Journey and stages as it relates to the writing process? Author Neil Gaiman once said that he stopped reading Campbell's explanation of the steps because he didn't want to consciously be limited by them.

I don't actually have any thoughts on Campbell because I've never read him. I did, however, read an article in which he was quoted as saying something to the effect that there are no heroes in literature after World War I, and that if we want to understand "The Hero's Journey" in modern times we have to watch movies. I have nothing against movies, of course; but Campbell's assertion (always assuming that I understood it) was such rampant bullshit that the man lost all credibility with me.
I have no idea who Campbell is or what this is really about - but the last line of SRD's answer was so surprisingly funny that I had to pass this on. :lol:
I ran across this in the gradual interview thread, and it made me think about the classic definition of the hero and his epic journey. Below are the 12 steps of the classic hero's epic quest. Does TC meet the criteria?

I think he pretty much does.


1. Ordinary World
2. Call to Adventure
3. Refusal of the Call
4. Meeting With the Mentor
5. Crossing the First Threshold
6. Tests, Allies, Enemies
7. Approach
8. Supreme Ordeal
9. Reward
10. The Road Back
11. Resurrection
12. Return With the Elixir
Proverbs for Paranoids #3.

If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers.
User avatar
Fist and Faith
Magister Vitae
Posts: 25513
Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2002 8:14 pm
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 57 times

Post by Fist and Faith »

I agree
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
-Paul Simon

Image
User avatar
Haruchai
Giantfriend
Posts: 309
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2004 1:19 am
Location: Australia

Post by Haruchai »

First Chronicles -

1. Ordinary World - agree
2. Call to Adventure - agree
3. Refusal of the Call - agree
4. Meeting With the Mentor - agree
5. Crossing the First Threshold - agree
6. Tests, Allies, Enemies - disagree and agree, because Covenant wants to believe that it is all a dream
7. Approach - agree
8. Supreme Ordeal - agree
9. Reward - agree and disagree, because
Spoiler
most of his friends die!
10. The Road Back -agree
11. Resurrection - agree
12. Return With the Elixir - agree and disagree,
Spoiler
Covenant doesn't have a cure for leprosy, but he seems happier within himself.
Second chronicles - pretty much all agree.
I wans't sure whether I needed spoilers or not, so I just put them in. :oops: 8)
"I see you keep a bee" - Danny Bhoy

"I'll move on when I'm ready to" - Reservoir Dogs

"Their pheremones fizzled like ice cream and lemonade" - Harvie Krumpet
User avatar
Tulizar
Bloodguard
Posts: 839
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2003 7:36 am
Location: Swamps of Jersey

Post by Tulizar »

Haruchai wrote:First Chronicles -


9. Reward - agree and disagree, because
Spoiler
most of his friends die!
12. Return With the Elixir - agree and disagree,
Spoiler
Covenant doesn't have a cure for leprosy, but he seems happier within himself.
These were a little iffy for me too. As far as number 9, I only considered what he received in return for accomplishing his task--mainly the Creator's offer to stay in the Land permanently (instead, I suppose TC's true reward is a sense of accomplishment and or a better understanding of what he was capable of doing?) I never thought about losing his friends (both when he is in the land and after he leaves. Makes his reward seem paltry! :) )

Number 12 makes sense. At the end of series one, TC is still a leper, but at least he's learned something about himelf. He seems satisfied that he did some good--he is happier, despite the fact that he's still not fully convinced that the Land is real.
Proverbs for Paranoids #3.

If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers.
User avatar
Durris
Giantfriend
Posts: 483
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 6:21 pm
Location: Hamden, CT, USA

Post by Durris »

Doesn't the Creator speak with Covenant near the end of TPTP, just before he wakes up in our world, and grant him _his human life_ as a reward? In the "real" world TC had been lying in hospital all this time about to die of allergy to the antidote for snake venom.

Admittedly this is something of a weak consolation prize, especially since even the Land's Creator can't take away Covenant's leprosy.

And isn't the last thing TC sees as he fades from the Land and back into the hospital bed a special assembly at Revelstone for the purpose of honoring him?

I agree that Covenant attains a greater degree of reintegration on his return to our world: between the First Chronicles and the Second he has resumed his writing career, and therefore the withering effects of leprosy (or rather, of his feelings about having leprosy) on his emotions and imagination have been healed to some degree.
Shared pain is lessened; shared joy is increased.
--Spider Robinson
User avatar
Furls Fire
Lord
Posts: 4872
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 10:35 am
Location: Heaven

Post by Furls Fire »

I never heard of Joseph Campbell until I saw that question in the interview. Is he a critic or book reviewer or something??

As far as his "formula" goes, I feel it's more of one for the "anti-hero" or "reluctant hero" myself. But, I never considered SRD a "formula" writer at all. If anything, he took the genre and turned it inside out with the Chrons. He took a bitter, non-believing leper; transported him into a Land where the earth itself heals and where health is so overwhelmingly tangible that he loses all control, leading him to commit a heinous act , and turned him into a hero. That's formula???? I don't think so.

At the end of the TPTP, the Creator wants to "reward" Covenant by letting him live out his days in the Land. Of course, that would be "too easy" for our hero and he refuses the gift. Yet, he accepts the gift of his life from the Creator and remains in the "real" world. One other gift, which the Creator does not take any refusal, is when he allows Covenant to see Mhoram and the rest of Revelstone gathered around Glimmermere to celebrate the end of the Despiser, to honor the Unbeliever, and to witness the tossing of the Krill. Which, I believe, was a great reward. If you all recall, the last few lines say...
He was a sick man, a victim of Hansen's Disease. But he was not a leper--not just a leper. He had the law of his illness carved in large, undeniable letters on the nerves of his body; but he was more than that. In the end, he had not failed the Land. And he had a heart which could still pump blood, bones which could still bear his weight; he had himself.

Thomas Covenant: Unbeliever

A miracle.

Despite the stiff pain in his lip, he smiled at the empty room. He felt the smile on his face, and was sure of it.

He smiled because he was alive.
Just look at that smile :)

I ask this...wouldn't a "formula" hero have opted for the other choice? Live out his days in health, being regalled as the great hero he was? Covenant is anything but "formula" in my opinion.
And I believe in you
altho you never asked me too
I will remember you
and what life put you thru.


~fly fly little wing, fly where only angels sing~

~this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you~

...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.

Image Image
User avatar
birdandbear
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 1898
Joined: Thu Oct 17, 2002 3:59 am
Location: Texas
Contact:

Post by birdandbear »

Okay, it's been awhile since I read Campbell, but I'll give it a go. ;)

Joseph Campbell's point, as I see it, is not that there is no such thing as an original story, (which seems to be the most common Campbell-related misunderstanding) but rather that all stories that evoke a certain reaction from their audience do so because they encompass certain themes common to the psyche of all humans. He theorizes that Mythos is as essential to human mental/spiritual development as DNA is to the physical. In every human life, according to Campbell, there are certain points at which we come to a crossroads, a spiritual threshold we must cross, and grow - or refuse to cross, and remain spiritually immature. These thresholds occur most commonly at points in life where great physical change is also occurring, although there are others more intuitive. The obvious ones include birth, the onset and the decline of puberty, marriage, old age, death. In ancient societies, (and a very few even today) these thresholds were often approached with a public acknowledgement of some kind; eg. Native American Vision Quests, or ritual scarring - the crucial Rite of Passage..

So, Annie, what does that have to do with anything we're discussing here, you ask?

Well, (I really am trying to keep this short...;) ) Campbell asserts that stories, specifically adventure stories, serve in essence the same cathartic purpose that a more physical Rite of Passage does. When we read (or hear) a true adventure story, we experience vicariously through the hero (and, as defined by Campbell, TC fits this description perhaps more acutely than many other protagonists....the term "anti-hero" means little in the context of the mythos) the transformations that are so necessary to our own psyches.
Furthermore, Campbell maps out in detail the specific requirements of the hero's journey, in order to achieve this desired catharsis. He names, as Tulizar has said, twelve points along the road to adventure that the Hero must typically reach, and pass through, in order to complete his journey. These points in the story are common to many tales from many different cultures and eras around the world, this fact being the basis for Campbell's theory that all people share, at the most primitive level, the same psychological needs. These needs generate myths. The needs are the same, the myths are fundamentally the same, and Cambell has coined the term "Monomyth" to fit this phenomenon. It's The Myth, the one constant, unending story of Mankind.

I'm not upholding Campbell as the definitive authority on Mythology and the Human Consciousness, but this is a subject I love, and the man has some very interesting ideas. I could attempt to go on about it - but there's much more to it that, unfortunately, is none too fresh in my mind right now. This is the best I could do with my limited recall at the moment, ;)
but if this type of material interests you, I would highly recommend Campbell's Hero With a Thousand Faces, or The Power of Myth as very worth your while. It's fascinating stuff. :D
Last edited by birdandbear on Thu May 06, 2004 6:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
"If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."
User avatar
matrixman
The Gap Into Spam
Posts: 8361
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2003 11:24 am

Post by matrixman »

This 12-Step Program for Heroes is interesting, but perhaps this reductionist view trivializes the richness and complexity of a work like The Chronicles? Okay, Thomas Covenant is a hero. Now we know.

A character like Luke Skywalker from Star Wars or Neo from The Matrix fits better into the 12-Step Program, methinks. Both Luke and Neo are convenient (though very effective) hero archetypes, not complicated human beings like Covenant's character. This jives with what SRD said in his reply: that Campbell apparently thought watching movies was the ticket to understanding the hero's journey, not reading books (after WWI, yada, yada).

Don't get me wrong, I really liked what Campbell had to say about his ideas on Bill Moyers's Power of Myth program. I might even hunt down a copy of Hero With A Thousand Faces. But I'll keep SRD's words in mind when I'm reading it, and have my BS detector scanning every page. :)
User avatar
Tulizar
Bloodguard
Posts: 839
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2003 7:36 am
Location: Swamps of Jersey

Post by Tulizar »

Matrixman wrote:
A character like Luke Skywalker from Star Wars or Neo from The Matrix fits better into the 12-Step Program, methinks. Both Luke and Neo are convenient (though very effective) hero archetypes, not complicated human beings like Covenant's character. This jives with what SRD said in his reply: that Campbell apparently thought watching movies was the ticket to understanding the hero's journey, not reading books (after WWI, yada, yada).
Good point. It's very difficult to compare the complexities of a well-developed literary character, to the hero of a two or three hour movie. It's been awhile since I've read Campbell, but I think he accepted film as the dominant entertainment media type of this century. Before that, stories were read or spoken--heroes in literature were more common, or at least potentially so. Today, most people probably watch movies rather than read books. Movies have gotten more complex and skillfully crafted over the years. Perhaps to Campbell it made sense that a well made movie was the only way to reach the majority of people out there. I think there are literary heroes after WWI (Joyce, Pynchon, SRD, Tolkien). I think there are many more in movies, and that more people are likely to understand the heroes journey on the big screen rather than on the printed page.

The 12 step hero program is a series of criteria that makes up a true literary epic journey. Just as Virgil's Aenis or Homer's Oddysseus fulfilled those 12 criteria, SRD's Covenant did the same; he was simply not your typical hero.
Proverbs for Paranoids #3.

If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers.
User avatar
Tulizar
Bloodguard
Posts: 839
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2003 7:36 am
Location: Swamps of Jersey

Post by Tulizar »

birdandbear wrote:Okay, it's been awhile since I read Campbell, but I'll give it a go. ;)

This is the best I could do with my limited recall at the moment, ;)
but if this type of material interests you, I would highly recommend Campbell's Hero With a Thousand Faces, or The Power of Myth as very worth your while. It's fascinating stuff. :D

Wow! I'd say your limited recall wasn't so limited! :) Guess I should dig out those books!
Proverbs for Paranoids #3.

If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers.
Post Reply

Return to “The First and Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant”