The Mueller Investigation

[SoulBiter]

The media and the Democrats were going bananas yesterday. All day long they threw out the word impeachment over and over. The left is so fast to jump on anything...anything at all to discredit Trump. Yet all they have done is give credibility to Trumps accusations of their fake news.

[Cail]

Im pretty sure the reason is that they breached federal taxation law.

So what? If the end result of the Mueller probe is a couple of cases of tax fraud, then it will have been an absolute waste.

BuzzFeeds description of specific statements to the Special Counsels Office, and characterization of documents and testimony obtained by this office, regarding Michael Cohens Congressional testimony are not accurate.

Buzzfeed responded that they were standing by their comments.

This, and the ensuing media circus are exactly why I believe nothing. Every bit of broadcast media yesterday was consumed with this non-story.

The Mueller investigation is a joke, and nothing is going to come out of it.

It's the beginning of the end....

[Skyweir]

Im pretty sure the reason is that they breached federal taxation law.

So what? If the end result of the Mueller probe is a couple of cases of tax fraud, then it will have been an absolute waste.

One could as soon call it a waste if it had failed to recoup costs as sizeable as has .. as I would call any investigation of criminality a waste. The MI regardless of its final report findings, has NOT been a waste.

BuzzFeeds description of specific statements to the Special Counsels Office, and characterization of documents and testimony obtained by this office, regarding Michael Cohens Congressional testimony are not accurate.

Buzzfeed responded that they were standing by their comments.

This, and the ensuing media circus are exactly why I believe nothing. Every bit of broadcast media yesterday was consumed with this non-story.

The Mueller investigation is a joke, and nothing is going to come out of it.

You clearly are not paying attention then. The assets seized evidence the degree of illegality uncovered, not just domestically but trans nationally. Now it is unlikely that the Russian nationals charged of tampering will face justice .. but Trump should be grateful that the MI uncovered some of those responsible. You dont think that is of value? Or do you think that foreign political/electoral interference should be ignored? I truly don't understand such a position.

It's the beginning of the end....

No argument.. its a media circus. And it is focussed on every global leader. Trump is getting his share of the media attention that all political leaders endure.

And the media may run off at the mouth .. sensationalising stories and reports but that is not relevant to the MI.

[Zarathustra]

It's the beginning of the end....

That's hilarious!

[Cail]

One could as soon call it a waste if it had failed to recoup costs as sizeable as has ..

That is never the point of criminal investigations, and as someone who supposedly worked in law enforcement I find it incredible that you'd use that as an excuse. The day that law enforcement becomes about paying the bills, we're all screwed.

[Ur Dead]

It's the beginning of the end....

That's hilarious!

Was Funny.
Like it when Rachel Maddow said she was beginning to hate the word bombshell. Maybe they should have said "fart"?

[Skyweir]

One could as soon call it a waste if it had failed to recoup costs as sizeable as has ..

That is never the point of criminal investigations, and as someone who supposedly worked in law enforcement I find it incredible that you'd use that as an excuse. The day that law enforcement becomes about paying the bills, we're all screwed.

Wow .. well two things

1. I hate to burst your delicate bubble but ... youre screwed.

You clearly have never worked in LE. The reality padawan is that money .. including government revenue drives pretty much everything. Of course its ABOUT criminality .. but if money had no place why do you think you get parking, speeding, etc tickets? Its not just the disincentive value .. it's a punitive form of government revenue.

Wow .. oh my .... LE is a tool of government coffers... who knew?
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.net ... s.amp.html


2. Anyway I wasnt literally suggesting that .. I was saying that the nature of forfeitures evidences the extent of illegality. And my key point was that do YOU believe such illegality should be ignored? Re the investigation .. Russian nationals were identified committing crimes and interfering with your electoral infrastructure.. do you think THAT should have been ignored? Do you think that such breaches should be given carte blanch access?

The MI simply from that perspective has uncovered vital infractions and illegality. Do you think tax law crimes committed by the wealthy should be given a pass?

[Cail]

1. I hate to burst your delicate bubble but ... youre screwed.

You clearly have never worked in LE. The reality padawan is that money .. including government revenue drives pretty much everything. Of course its ABOUT criminality .. but if money had no place why do you think you get parking, speeding, etc tickets? Its not just the disincentive value .. it's a punitive form of government revenue.

Wow .. oh my .... LE is a tool of government coffers... who knew?
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.net ... s.amp.html

If you paid more attention to the discussion and stopped trying to score points (aside from eliminating half your posts), you'd not have such an adversarial relationship with a whole lot of other posters.

Here's the thing, I don't have a bubble, and there's very little that's delicate about me.

There's no question that revenue drives law enforcement in certain ways. However, had you paid attention to what I actually typed, you would have caught where I said...

"The day that law enforcement becomes about paying the bills, we're all screwed."

So then, while you may have worked in law enforcement, you sure didn't understand what it was about because I'll bet that even in Australia the police and prosecutor's offices are funded by tax dollars.

But more importantly, we're talking about prosecutors here, specifically a special prosecutor charged with discovering whether or not a foreign nation tampered with our election. The fact that it's found people who have committed crimes, and they've paid fines is inconsequential to the investigation, and saying that the revenue somehow justifies the investigation is ridiculous. That's not why crimes are investigated, nor is it why they're prosecuted.

2. Anyway I wasnt literally suggesting that .. I was saying that the nature of forfeitures evidences the extent of illegality. And my key point was that do YOU believe such illegality should be ignored? Re the investigation .. Russian nationals were identified committing crimes and interfering with your electoral infrastructure.. do you think THAT should have been ignored? Do you think that such breaches should be given carte blanch access?

The MI simply from that perspective has uncovered vital infractions and illegality. Do you think tax law crimes committed by the wealthy should be given a pass?

There you go erecting that weak-ass straw man again. No one's said anything about ignoring crimes. In fact, had you bothered to read what's been typed, you would have seen where I typed....

I'm not suggesting that tax fraud be ignored. I'm suggesting that those crimes were outside the scope of the investigation, and should have been turned over to local prosecutors.

[Skyweir]

Well perhaps then we both could take greater care reading posts.

Anyway there is little semantic difference between what you now have interpreted what you wrote and what you actually wrote.

Yes

1. The point IS the investigation of illegality.
2. A mark of success is the indictment and conviction rate but the nature and degree of assets seized is always part of the win.

And in the MI has indicated the extent of illegality identified.

And money always enters the equation.. In my early days worked in prosecution, and if there were indications that a prosecution might fail, for multiple different reasons (the integrity of material evidence, the costs, witness dynamics etc) we could not justify the expense of pursuing the case, as heart rendering as that may be. We had one rape case, it went to trial twice resulting in hung juries twice. A hat trick was regrettably not able to be pursued.

Muellers indictments, those that were pursued (as we dont know what we dont know) would have passed the same hurdles/tests. Its not about throwing a towel in the air and seeing where it lands.

Luck doesnt play a role.

And Im not even remotely interested in points scoring. If it were a competition maybe .. but its not. No one is keeping a running tally. So thats a straw man

[Cail]

1. The point IS the investigation of illegality.

No. Not even close. This is the point. There's a specific thing that the special council was chartered to do.

So thats a straw man

You should really learn what words mean before you use them. You're welcome.

[Skyweir]

Oh dear, where to start _

Ok so if you read the appointment of the Soecial Counsel you would have noted some key terms .. allow me to illustrate them for you ... youre welcome

Yes Russian interference with a federal election ..

but note

"any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign" ... and

Note the use of the word AND

"any matters that arose or may arise ditlrectly from the investigation" .. "and" etc

"The Special Counsel is authorised to prosecute federal crimes arising from the investigation"

The Mueller Investigation has so progressed.

If you, Cail honestly believe that the investigation has in any way, shape or form acted ultra vires or has exceeded its mandate .. do you honestly believe that would have been challenged?

Well FYI it neither literally nor technically has. A good lawyer, and you can assume those convicted had good legal representation... never raised any such claim.

As detailed above .. matters dont automatically progress to trial .. there are tests that are required to be satisfied, approvals sought, cases made to answer at the FBI, DPP and court levels.

The indictments stood, convictions ruled etc

[Cail]

Again, you still seem not to get it. Have you ever read one of these charters before?

Tax fraud charges, or any other similar non-related charge (non-related to the reason the special council was chartered) should have been handed over to either the IRS or the state's attorney general. Whether or not the special council could prosecute them or not is immaterial. That's the way the law works here.

This tactic of yours of arguing minutiae when it's proven over and over that you don't understand the larger issue has become beyond tiring. You're proven wrong, so you find some little semantic scab to pick at so that you can continue to argue.

You don't understand the American political system and how things are supposed to be done here, and every post you make reinforces that fact.

[Skyweir]

Yes I clearly dont.

To me its part of the mandate .. its spelled out quite simply. But lets say Im absolutely wrong .. how then has the Investigation continued as it has if indeed ultra vires?

Mueller has indeed indicted and secured convictions for tax law crimes.

If it honestly is as you say .. he could not have laid one charge.

I cant but help think you are wrong. It makes no sense otherwise.

[Cail]

No. There's a catch-all clause in the charter, but that's all it is. It's there to empower the special council to use other charges to get people to flip, but it's absolutely not part of their mandate.

Here's another example. Was the US invasion of Iraq about human rights abuses and their willingness to gas their own citizens? Both of those things are in the AUMF, but no one's seriously going to argue that's why we invaded Iraq.

Once Mueller's team discovered tax fraud, jaywalking, or any other crime that wasn't related to the election, that evidence should have been turned over to whichever agency had jurisdiction. Instead, these unrelated crimes have been used to justify the continuance of the Mueller investigation.

The fact is - and there's no denying this - the Mueller investigation has completely exonerated Trump and his team from any charges of collusion (whatever that is) and obstruction. No one charged with these other crimes has "flipped" and fingered Trump for anything. This exercise has been a complete waste of time, and has done nothing but further divide the country and prevent the government from governing.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

The fact is - and there's no denying this - the Mueller investigation has completely exonerated Trump and his team from any charges of collusion (whatever that is) and obstruction. No one charged with these other crimes has "flipped" and fingered Trump for anything. This exercise has been a complete waste of time, and has done nothing but further divide the country and prevent the government from governing.

The Mueller Investigation is the "Al Capone's Vault" of Special Prosecutor Investigations.

Thoroughly enjoyed the video, as well. This is slowest "beginning of the end" in the history of the world.

[Skyweir]

No. There's a catch-all clause in the charter, but that's all it is. It's there to empower the special council to use other charges to get people to flip, but it's absolutely not part of their mandate.

Here's another example. Was the US invasion of Iraq about human rights abuses and their willingness to gas their own citizens? Both of those things are in the AUMF, but no one's seriously going to argue that's why we invaded Iraq.

Once Mueller's team discovered tax fraud, jaywalking, or any other crime that wasn't related to the election, that evidence should have been turned over to whichever agency had jurisdiction. Instead, these unrelated crimes have been used to justify the continuance of the Mueller investigation.

The fact is - and there's no denying this - the Mueller investigation has completely exonerated Trump and his team from any charges of collusion (whatever that is) and obstruction. No one charged with these other crimes has "flipped" and fingered Trump for anything. This exercise has been a complete waste of time, and has done nothing but further divide the country and prevent the government from governing.

So is this clause that limits prosecutorial reach spelled out in sections 600 through to whatever it was? In the Code of Federal Regulations? Cos if so .. be interesting to read that Limitation. And no Ive searched for US legislation before .. and failed. My go to here is austlii a brilliantly organised hub of Australian legislation .. but havent yet found a database as easy to use as that.

So ok lets say thats right.

Who would Mueller have passed on the matters to .. the IRS? And if it is a limitation how has he managed the effective prosecution of all the matters he has?

And how has not one defence lawyer picked up and run with this. Acting beyond ones mandate is a perfect technical abuse to proffer????

[Hashi Lebwohl]

The FBI has placed Roger Stone under arrest, charging him with witness tampering, obstruction and false statements about his interactions related to WikiLeaks' release. Of course, that has absolutely *nothing* to do with "collusion" whatsoever, but the Mueller Investigation hasn't cared about collusion in over a year--they are now fully into free-for-all, witch-hunt mode.

[Cail]

Again it's become clear that Mueller and his puppetmasters don't care a whit about the law. "Orange Man Bad".

It's a shame that the GOP has no balls (or maybe it's just that they have class). I'd love to see a Democrat treated this way. Never happen though.

[Skyweir]

Well he aint good

I cant for a second believe a Special Prosecutor doesnt care for the law. He lives it and breathes it. And if that is remotely true .. youd think a legal challenge would have arisen by now .. and what was that??? Huh? Oh yeah the empty void of nothing, nada, zilch ...

Pity so many rush to judgement on this .. youd think youd want to be on the right side of history.

[Cail]

youd think youd want to be on the right side of history.

I am. I'm an adult who accepts the results of elections. I'm an adult who doesn't throw a tantrum when I don't get my way. I'm an adult who can disagree with someone without calling them evil or trying to destroy them.

This period is shameful. A vocal minority and the media has decided that the rules don't apply. They're wrong, and they look ridiculous to reasonable people. I will happily state, now or at any point in the future, that even though I didn't vote for Trump and never wanted him to be POTUS, I took a principled stand for what's right. And what's right is supporting the duly elected president even though he wasn't my choice.

No one can call me a sore loser or a crybaby, and no one can say that I tried to subvert the law of the land, and no one can say that I engaged in a reign of terror against other Americans that might not hold the same beliefs I do.


I'm definitely on the right side of history.