Beware the decline of Christianity

[Skyweir]

I love this

[SoulBiter]

I dont kmow why I should, you haven't sited a single source except your opinion so far.

Um, Matthew White, R. J. Rummel, David Stannard, and David Plaisted, are the ones I've cited by name so far. I could also quote Hannah Arendt and Noam Chomsky while I'm at it. And many others besides.

100k to 1 million? in a town of only 10K?

You think the Beziers massacre was the only killing? Or that the death toll in Beziers could only have been 10,000? It might've been 20,000 or even more.

Remember, Robert Bellarmine referred to an infinite number of heretics being killed by the Church. And in the Cautio Criminalis the author said that the witch-hunts were worse than recent wars. (I used White's material to gauge this statement: he lists, IIRC, the Peasants' War and the Knight's War in Germany (I think those were the names of the wars at the time) as ranging from 100,000 to 250,000 dead. I know the old estimate of 9,000,000 witches killed is no longer widely respected but I doubt the "revised" figures of 50,000 to 100,000 that I've seen, too. Based on the Cautio Criminalis comparison, I would guesstimate some figure in the hundreds-of-thousands range.)

I did go out and do some reading based on some of the information you provided. But you are still conflating a leader during a war or mass killing that was supposedly a Christian with the deaths of a war as if the war was about Christianity rather than some other secular reason.

Example. The Kuomintang Civil war was politically motivated not religiously motivated. There is no reason that I could find that would indicate that this civil war was because Jesus told them to.

Woodrow Wilson was a Christian. That doesn't mean that WW1 was a Christian war/religious war.

As far as how I got to the 270 million.

https://www.politicalislam.com/tears-of-jihad/

This article goes over the deaths by region and at the bottom says specifically "This gives a rough estimate of 270 million killed by jihad."

https://www.americanthinker.com/article ... story.html

Robert Spencer wrote a book "the History of Jihad" where he details the record of that mass slaughter of 270 Million people by Jihad.

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... d_in_Islam

[Rawedge Rim]

I dont kmow why I should, you haven't sited a single source except your opinion so far.

Um, Matthew White, R. J. Rummel, David Stannard, and David Plaisted, are the ones I've cited by name so far. I could also quote Hannah Arendt and Noam Chomsky while I'm at it. And many others besides.

100k to 1 million? in a town of only 10K?

You think the Beziers massacre was the only killing? Or that the death toll in Beziers could only have been 10,000? It might've been 20,000 or even more.

Remember, Robert Bellarmine referred to an infinite number of heretics being killed by the Church. And in the Cautio Criminalis the author said that the witch-hunts were worse than recent wars. (I used White's material to gauge this statement: he lists, IIRC, the Peasants' War and the Knight's War in Germany (I think those were the names of the wars at the time) as ranging from 100,000 to 250,000 dead. I know the old estimate of 9,000,000 witches killed is no longer widely respected but I doubt the "revised" figures of 50,000 to 100,000 that I've seen, too. Based on the Cautio Criminalis comparison, I would guesstimate some figure in the hundreds-of-thousands range.)

You think the Beziers massacre was the only killing? Or that the death toll in Beziers could only have been 10,000? It might've been 20,000 or even more.

or it could have been 2000 or less.

Not terribly uncommon to exagerate how many were overcome to bolster ones reputation.

[Vraith]

How about this:

Did the founding of Islam make the Middle East MORE violent than it was before:

No.

Did the founding of Christianity make the region LESS violent:

No.

Once they became dominant in politics, did Islam or Christianity increase war/religious violence/political violence?

Yes, Both did.
For AT LEAST 1600 fucking years.

When does religious ideology STOP causing trouble?

When you take away their damn power/influence.

The ONLY way someone can "USE" religion to do evil is WHEN and BECAUSE the religious LEADERS have turned the congregants into followers/fanatics/BELIEVERS who can JUSTIFY their attacks as righteous/required...and be accused if they don't fight, and forgiven if they do but are wrong.

AND---for those who think Islam is more kill-joyous....
You could start with the activities of the Orthodox everywhere east of Switzerland-ish, and Catholics and every other Xtian group in pretty much ALL of the Americas. [[does anywhere south of Texas even exist for you people?]] There are other world places, too.
And you don't even have to look at history...a lot of this shit is going on RiGHT NOW.


P.S. Robert fucking Spencer? WTF?
Why not go D'Nasty D'Slime while you are at it?
[[heh...though someone told me they hate each other...Pot hates kettle!!!...mwaaahaahaa;haahaa....give me a witch to dance with and watch both the fuckers burn....]]]

[Cail]

And you don't even have to look at history...a lot of this shit is going on RiGHT NOW.

Care to elaborate? I'm pretty sure the catholic church isn't behind any sort of slaughter anywhere in the world at the moment. Hell, the church has come out against strongmen like Maduro.

[SoulBiter]

P.S. Robert fucking Spencer? WTF?
Why not go D'Nasty D'Slime while you are at it?

"Oh crap Vraith dropped the F bomb and told me my source is no good. Guess I should go out and find some things Vraith published so I know my source is accurate." Of course I tried to Google Vraith/Islam and I got nuthin.

[Vraith]

"Oh crap Vraith dropped the F bomb and told me my source is no good. Guess I should go out and find some things Vraith published so I know my source is accurate." Of course I tried to Google Vraith/Islam and I got nuthin.

Heh...that's actually pretty funny.

But Spencer still is an asshole often, wrong usually, biased always.

Cail, I wasn't particularly talking about Catholics there. And at least they're against the Philippines monster.

Church is still protecting pedophiles, though.

And look at Brazil. Don't think the Church has taken an official position...but "good" Catholics and Evangelicals are in a vile mood with nasty plans, and the guy in charges is a Catholic who thinks the problem with the decades of regime rule was that they didn't kill enough people after torturing them.

Look at Putin's good Orthodox bullies.
Hell, even Buddhists are engaged in slaughtering people over race/religion.

[Cail]

Cail, I wasn't particularly talking about Catholics there. And at least they're against the Philippines monster.

Fair enough.

Church is still protecting pedophiles, though.

Absolutely, and I've been a very vocal critic of that. That, as well as a few other issues, is why I'm no longer a practicing catholic.

And look at Brazil. Don't think the Church has taken an official position...but "good" Catholics and Evangelicals are in a vile mood with nasty plans, and the guy in charges is a Catholic who thinks the problem with the decades of regime rule was that they didn't kill enough people after torturing them.

And here we'll part ways. Brazil is an utterly bizarre case study. Their theological shift is to evangelical rather than catholic christianity. And those evangelicals are weird. There's a coming disaster there that's going to end up in a Balkan-like theological purge, and the evangelicals are going to be on the wrong side of it. When that happens, it'll absolutely be christian extremism and violence. But man, it's just weird what's happening there.

Look at Putin's good Orthodox bullies.

True, but religion and Russia have always had that sort of arrangement, even during the Soviet regime.

Hell, even Buddhists are engaged in slaughtering people over race/religion.

Something that always takes people by surprise.

[Skyweir]

Balkan like theological purge

[Rawedge Rim]

"Oh crap Vraith dropped the F bomb and told me my source is no good. Guess I should go out and find some things Vraith published so I know my source is accurate." Of course I tried to Google Vraith/Islam and I got nuthin.

Heh...that's actually pretty funny.

But Spencer still is an asshole often, wrong usually, biased always.

Cail, I wasn't particularly talking about Catholics there. And at least they're against the Philippines monster.

Church is still protecting pedophiles, though.

And look at Brazil. Don't think the Church has taken an official position...but "good" Catholics and Evangelicals are in a vile mood with nasty plans, and the guy in charges is a Catholic who thinks the problem with the decades of regime rule was that they didn't kill enough people after torturing them.

Look at Putin's good Orthodox bullies.
Hell, even Buddhists are engaged in slaughtering people over race/religion.

So someone who is nominally of a religion essentially makes anything that person espouses or does automatically a religious thing? Really? So a bank robber who is culturally christian is robbing a bank for the greater glory of God?

[Rawedge Rim]

Cail, I wasn't particularly talking about Catholics there. And at least they're against the Philippines monster.

Fair enough.

Church is still protecting pedophiles, though.

Absolutely, and I've been a very vocal critic of that. That, as well as a few other issues, is why I'm no longer a practicing catholic.

And look at Brazil. Don't think the Church has taken an official position...but "good" Catholics and Evangelicals are in a vile mood with nasty plans, and the guy in charges is a Catholic who thinks the problem with the decades of regime rule was that they didn't kill enough people after torturing them.

And here we'll part ways. Brazil is an utterly bizarre case study. Their theological shift is to evangelical rather than catholic christianity. And those evangelicals are weird. There's a coming disaster there that's going to end up in a Balkan-like theological purge, and the evangelicals are going to be on the wrong side of it. When that happens, it'll absolutely be christian extremism and violence. But man, it's just weird what's happening there.

Look at Putin's good Orthodox bullies.

True, but religion and Russia have always had that sort of arrangement, even during the Soviet regime.

Hell, even Buddhists are engaged in slaughtering people over race/religion.

Something that always takes people by surprise.

Since about 2002 where is the wholesale protection of pedophiles and those engaged in sexual abuse been happening in the Church?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... se-fiction

[Skyweir]

1. No empirical data exists that suggests that Catholic clerics sexually abuse minors at a level higher than clerics from other religious traditions or from other groups of men who have ready access and power over children (e.g., school teachers, coaches).

You realise that this doesnt exonerate the church .. its not an assuring benchmark for your point.

But this IS your point

The incidents of clerical abuse in recent years (i.e., since 2002) are down to a trickle. Many of the newer abuse cases since 2002 have been perpetrated by visiting international priests here on vacation or sabbatical who have not gone through the extensive training and screening that American clerics now go through

But what this tells me is that US Catholicism is more proactive than the Catholic Church worldwide. It tells me that Catholicism generally are not proactive in their efforts to stamp out child abuse by clerics. This tells me that the problem originated and is systemic to Catholicism at its core or roots or source.

Why would International visiting clerics NOT have received the training that the US Catholic Church mandates for their clerics?

IF Catholicism were genuine proponents of the wellbeing of children .. IF they were committed to safeguarding Catholic children and youth from cleric abuse ... WHY is the church as a whole taking action to END it.

Kudos to the US Catholicism absolutely.. they are leading with the right foot .. but Catholicism as a whole are clearly not stepping up.

That is not a good look or an assurance that all is well.

However, these issues are indeed issues of systemic abuse that is seen in all organised religion.

Thats an even bigger issue .. I wonder if sexual abuses are also common also to Islamic and Buddhist clerics? That would be an interesting comparison or study.

Down under our royal commission addressed institutional child sex abuse issues across the board, not just religious institutions but all TOR institutions.

[Orlion]

With the currently revealed scandals of the Southern Baptist and Mormon Churches making the news, SB is somewhat right. I imagine that all the sects of Christianity have serious and hidden sexual assault problems.

So why should we beware the decline of Christianity? It destroys institutions that predators have taken advantage of for years, and any good they do tend to be waaaay overstated.

[Skyweir]

Agreed.

Cos Im lazy ... the thing for me is the institutional nature of these abuses.

They are so very common to institutions like religion, orphanages .. bodies where a sexual predator can be concealed, protected, to enable him access to victims.

Such instructions are grain silos of targets, easy to identify, easy to target, easy to access.

But above all a paradigm within which guilt, behavioural controls are built into belief systems and readily used by predators to silence resistance, and reporting.

Furthermore, religious paradigms, that promote sexual restraint always result in sexually unsatisfied, frustrated and fraught individuals.

Religions and the like are, in these ways a haven for sexual predators.

That's the tragedy.

The only way to combat such actions effectively is for wholesale institutional reform, from dogma and doctrine to structural processes and practices. imv anyway.

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

New poll shows anti-Christian persecution a 'very severe' global concern

Men walk in rubble Nov. 13 near St. Mary's Catholic Church and St. Elias Orthodox Church after a bombing in Damascus, Syria. Christians in the Middle East face extinction because of genocide, wars and international indifference to their plight, said speakers at a Dec. 5 panel discussion in New York. (Credit: CNS)


NEW YORK -- According to a new poll, an increasing number of Catholics believe anti-Christian persecution is a "very severe" global concern.

Results from an annual survey conducted by the papal charity Aid to the Church in Need USA released this week reveal that 46 percent of U.S. Catholics believe the issue to be a severe concern, up from only 30 percent last year. The survey also found that 58 percent of Catholics identify as "very concerned" about the plight of Christians around the globe, also up from 41 percent last year.

Yet despite the general increase in awareness and concern, the same data reveal that most U.S. Catholics believe that attention to the issue is lacking on both the local level and national levels of the U.S. Church.

Of the 1,000 respondents surveyed by McLaughlin & Associates, only 19 percent believe that their local parish is "very involved" on the issue, a drop of 18 percent from last year's data. Another 22 percent said they were "unsure" as to the Church's involvement.

On the other end of the spectrum, only 24 percent of respondents believe that their bishop is "very engaged" on the topic, down 8 percent from last year. Another 14 percent said that their bishop is "not engaged at all."

Meanwhile, Pope Francis received high marks for his involvement, with a majority (51 percent) of respondents saying they believe he is "very engaged" with the issue, while only 14 percent said they were "unsure" of the pope's involvement.

Coincidently, the pope's selected prayer intention for the month of March this year is dedicated to new Christian martyrs.

"It might be hard for us to believe, but there are more martyrs today than in the first centuries," Francis observed in the March edition of "The Pope Video."

[...]


Pope's March intention: pray for persecuted Christians [YouTube: 1 min]

[Skyweir]

Seriously? That is concerning.. so in what form or forms does anti Christian movement take?

Is it ridicule?

The pope mentioned martyrdom.. are many Christians losing their lives as a result of anti Christian action?

Quite honestly find it rather odd .. I know that Utah is one of the HIGHEST States with LGBT youth suicide. Thats a whole lot of hate there.. but hardly anti Christian hate.

[Rawedge Rim]

Seriously? That is concerning.. so in what form or forms does anti Christian movement take?

Is it ridicule?

The pope mentioned martyrdom.. are many Christians losing their lives as a result of anti Christian action?

Quite honestly find it rather odd .. I know that Utah is one of the HIGHEST States with LGBT youth suicide. Thats a whole lot of hate there.. but hardly anti Christian hate.

https://www.newsweek.com/christian-pers ... ver-770462
https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewelinaoch ... 3f6245e30f

[Skyweir]

Wow I would not have imagined the degree of the issue. Its mostly Middle Eastern and Asian countries where Christianity is a minority group ... and yes that has long been a problem.

The backlash that occurs in western nations is disappointing.

The report examined the plight of Christians in China, Egypt, Eritrea, India, Iran, Iraq, Nigeria, North Korea, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Syria and Turkey over the period lasting from 2015 until 2017. The research showed that in that time, Christians suffered crimes against humanity, and some were hanged or crucified

Pretty atrocious.

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

Last Word: Christian Iran

Ancient History, Ever New


On a dimly lit side street in central Tehran, a bright yellow light shines above a wooden door. Step inside and you might imagine you had left the Islamic Republic. An unveiled woman greets guests and leads them to a spacious dining room, where other women have hung their veils and monteaux at the door. It is early summer, so sleeveless tops reveal bare arms and shoulders. When one patron produces a bottle of Scotch, a waiter brings him a tumbler with ice.

This is one of Tehran's three Armenian clubs - informal "Islamic-free zones" where Armenian Christians can socialize without the constraints of Islamic law. There are other kinds of Christians in Iran - Assyrians and Chaldeans, Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox - but Armenians are the most numerous. It is estimated that there are three hundred thousand of them in Iran. They are allocated five seats in the religious-minorities section of parliament, freely attend services in the six hundred Armenian churches throughout the country, hold observer status on the powerful Guardian Council, and operate their own schools so that their children can be taught in the Armenian language.

Christianity has a long history in Iran. The Acts of the Apostles tell us that Parthians, Persians, and Medes converted to Christianity at Pentecost, and the Parthian kings allowed the new religion to spread throughout the empire. Christians fleeing Roman persecution found a safe haven there. But for the next fifteen hundred years the fortunes of Persian Christians were subject to the political conflicts that swept across Asia. The fourth-century Zoroastrian ruler Shapour II initially allowed religious freedom but then cracked down on both Christians and Jews. In the early centuries of Islamic rule, Christians enjoyed the status of a protected minority, but the Crusades revived old religious tensions. The early Mongol rulers converted to Christianity after they invaded in the thirteenth century, but when later rulers opted for Islam, Christians were again persecuted.

[...]

The main attraction is the cathedral itself, where the beauty of the Armenian religious tradition is revealed in all its glory. At the top of the central dome the creation story is painted in patterns of blue and gold. Winged cherubs, a traditional Armenian motif, decorate the stone columns, and traditional Persian imagery appears in the floral patterns that adorn the entrance ceiling.

The cathedral isn't the only church in Julfa. Knock on the wooden door of the Church of St. Mary and a caretaker will open it to admit visitors to the inner courtyard. Built by a wealthy silk merchant in the seventeenth century, St. Mary's was later expanded to accommodate overflow crowds. Then there is the Church of Bethlehem, where the life of Jesus is portrayed in seventy-two wall paintings. The crosses of both churches rise above their central domes to share the skyline with the local minarets.

Many Westerners think of Iran as a theocratic monolith. They would no doubt be surprised to discover Christians of various kinds living there comfortably. Some of these Christian communities are ancient; some arrived more recently, seeking asylum. But even the newcomers now regard Iran as their home. They think of the Shiite majority not as their hosts, but as neighbors with whom they have much in common. For example, Muslim and Christian Iranians are united in their enthusiasm for the recent nuclear deal, which will release their country from stifling economic sanctions. In an interview with the Fides News Agency, Hormoz Aslani Babroudi, director of the Pontifical Missionary Society of Iran, offered his endorsement of the agreement: "Christians, along with all the Iranian people, are rejoicing because their prayers were answered. From now on it will be easier for the world to have a positive view of Iran." He added, "We do not consider ourselves foreigners but Iranians, and we are proud of it."

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

Confessions of a 'Weird Catholic' [In-Depth, Opinion]

People pray during a Pontifical High Mass Feb. 15 at St. Vincent Ferrer Church in New York City. The liturgy preceded the third annual Lepanto Conference, a one-day event featuring speakers who discussed the history, beauty and sacredness of the traditional Latin Mass. (CNS/Gregory A. Shemitz)


A recent New York Times article on "Weird Christianity" undoubtedly left some Catholics perplexed as to why all these young people are flocking to Latin Mass. Critics fear elitist anti-modern tendencies. Could this step backward into a world of bells, incense and traditional pre-modern moral norms impede the progress made since medieval days?

While traditionalism can surely lead Catholics to retreat into the past and hide from the modern world, it can also serve as an impetus to engage more deeply with the wounds and needs of today's world. The focus on beauty and materiality should inspire us to go out into the world and encounter Christ in the flesh, in the margins, as Pope Francis says, and discover how liturgy and spirituality are connected to the needs of those around us.

My first attraction to Catholicism began when I took a required philosophy of human nature course as a freshman at Fordham University. My professor, who was in her early 80s, was the first person who took my questions about life's meaning and ultimate truth seriously -- and who spoke about these matters with such gladness and certainty. "You all exist for a purpose," she would say, "and it is your duty to find out why." I needed to know what was behind this woman's bold assertion.

[...]

As I started exploring Catholicism's different spiritualities and devotions, I quickly found myself enamored by the Latin Mass and traditional piety. I fell in love with its richness, which was slightly reminiscent of the byzantine liturgy I had grown up with.

I soon realized I wasn't the only millennial attending Latin Masses.

It's true that "Weird Christianity" draws in many privileged, (upper-)middle class, mostly white, millennials, who -- like me -- grew up sheltered from the hardships and injustices that plague our society. But this bourgeois suburban setting proved to be a breeding ground for existential emptiness.

[...]

Many people flinch when they hear about traditional liturgy and spirituality because they associate it with antiquated views of women, colonialism or anti-modernism. I acknowledge that much of pre-modern Catholicism is tangled up with ugly systems of oppression. But I've found that both traditional spirituality and morality have not only imbued my life with a more tangibly definitive meaning, they have also made me more sensitive to social injustice and the suffering of others.

The demanding moral teachings of Christianity, modeled on the kenotic love Christ demonstrated on the cross, have reshaped my outlook toward life from one of self-seeking comfort to self-sacrificial charity. The witness of people like Dorothy Day, who recognized the connection between traditional doctrine and liturgy, and proximity to those on the margins, speak volumes. Accused of being both a radical communist and a conservative prude, Dorothy believed that personal holiness -- bolstered by her readings of early church fathers and medieval mystics -- and fidelity to church teaching were crucial to creating a more just social order.

I am also inspired by more contemporary examples of people like Eve Tushnet who view chastity and celibacy not as obstacles to intimacy, but as entry ways into a deeper mode of living in relationship with others.

Citing the work of queer literary critic Frederick Roden in a 2009 article "Romoeroticism," Tushnet highlights the way that the liturgical, aesthetic and sexual ethos of medieval Catholicism drew in troves of gay Brits in the Victorian era "who responded strongly to Catholicism's physicality." She continues:

The incense smoke and flaking paint, the hint of cannibalism that recalled the Church to Her disrespectable origins, the kneeling, and the statues called to gay men and women. If you're persecuted for your reaction to gender and physicality, you may become intensely aware of bodily realities; and Catholicism, alone in the mainstream Western religious landscape, kept insisting that bodies were both important and bizarre. We alone kept saying that the flat white wafer in the priest's hands might shiver at any moment into raw and bleeding human flesh. We alone made Communion a horror story.

Tushnet's words resonate deeply with my own personal experience. Older forms of liturgy and spirituality tend to place greater emphasis on beauty, the body and the material realm as a whole. The bells and incense at Latin Mass, the gory, baroque Spanish crucifixes, and eucharistic processions have made tangible the abstract ideals we believe in in a way that the felt banners and David Haas hymns in my dad's parish never did for me.



Archbishop Michel Aupetit of Paris uses a censer as he celebrates the annual chrism Mass at historic St. Sulpice Church April 17, 2019, in the wake of the massive fire that seriously damaged the historic Notre Dame Cathedral. (CNS/Paul Haring)


[...]

This brand of spirituality that highly values the physical has allowed me to discern Christ's face keenly in the suffering of others. These experiences have made me want to understand the experiences of those who face social injustices. They've forced me to question my own privilege and the extent to which my lifestyle contributes to the suffering of others.

Yes, traditional spirituality can lead us into the temptation of making an idol out of the past and hiding from the secular world. Instead, I would urge "trads" to rely on Francis' image of the church as a field hospital and enter into the world with our alternative vision. Let's consider what a great gift we have in the "weird" expressions of our faith -- a gift our weird and wounded world is desperately in need of.