Townfulasonobitches USA

[KaosArcana]

I don't think that Covenant ever would have noticed the people of the town were "bigoted" if he had never been struck down by leporsy. Remember, he attended their social functions ... spoke at their club
meetings ... there's nothing at all to indicate that Covenant had any problems with the town at all until he was diagnosed with leprosy.

So I think that the Covenant family would have gotten along just fine with their neighbors.

[danlo]

I've, personally, always thought that Megan Roman was 2 faced and was the one responsible 4 paying his phone bill, electric bill and having the groceries delivered--I've never trusted lawyers. Here's kinda a weird, interesting, theory: Maybe Foul picked up on the bad vibes in the town towards TC even b4 Drool summoned him and used it agaist TC in an attempt 2 weaken him and fuel his bitterness b4 TC arrives in The Land--the Creator appears--so he must b aware of some ripple around the arch of time between The Land's Earth and ours--perhaps there r many people w/white gold wedding bands but TC's weakness, bitterness, total alienation and being on a very, very REAL brink of suicide made him a prime target 4 Foul. So y is it that TC must appear in public b4 the Creator's or Foul's (via Drool) actions take place? Is it public humiliation that increases the power of summoning? On the other hand is a public forum the only place the Creator can reach out 2 him? Foul was influencing the town way b4 any sacrifice or summonings @ the beginning of TWL so how can we say Foul didn't have a hand in manipulating TFOSOBS in the 1st place?

[KaosArcana]

I don't get that at all from Covenant's lawyer.

No one FORCED her to call Covenant and warn him that the
town was trying to get Haven Farm through imminent domain.
At some point, she forced the sheriff to either look for Covenant
or look for Joan ... I can't recall.

And Covenant trusted her enough in _The Wounded Land_ to
have her buy him a shotgun.

As I think about it, I have a lot of respect for her ... remember,
she admitted to being scared of Covenant but was determined
to do her duty by him anyway.

To me, it takes a lot more courage to admit your fear rather than
just deny you have it.

[danlo]

TC still had alot of $ coming in from his book and movie--if Roman had any legal access 2 that $ she could have paid 4 all that stuff--who knows maybe some of that $ went 2 Joan and she had Roman pay all those bills...possibly out of quilt, possibly out of fear. Sure she bought him a shotgun, sure she warned him about Haven Farm--gotto protect our investments while they'r still alive. Sounds like a poor town--TC was probably 1 of the wealthiest citizens--a gold mine (comparitively) 4 Roman. They might have written in a clause that said "my Lawyer will get x % of the proceeds 4 book and movie rights, for contineuos service, unless in the event of my death.." Who knows--I still don't trust her.
----I found something interesting about TFOSOBS skimming LFB: someone printed a biased and condemming newspaper article in the town's press about TC's leprosy just as he was taking off 2 Louisiana...

[KaosArcana]

By that logic, you could say that Berenford was actually trying to get
Linden Avery killed or in trouble with the law. Sure, he was saying he
was doing it for Covenant's good, but look what he did:

1. Gets Linden Avery involved in an illegal situation her first night
in town. By not reporting Covenant's holding of Joan, she became
an accessory to a kidnapping charge.

2. Leaves her alone with Covenant at a crime scene when the nuts
who stole Joan could come back at any time.

Maybe he was afraid that Linden was going to replace him?

[danlo]

I never said Dr. Berensford wasn't on TC's side. I was just talking about Megan Roman. Ur 1st point is right---that's essentially what he did! As 4 point 2 Benford did not 4c that situation happening and @ that time LA was now out @ Haven Farm of her own volition.

[Prince of Amber]

As far as I can remember most of the townsfolk didn't do Covenant any physical harm except the creep who put the razor blades in his bread rolls, (oh and didn't the trucker punch him when he found out who he was?) So whoever at the store who did that gets my vote as the worst, nastiest most evil character this side of the Land, most of the others were trying to keep leprosy away from their family and friends, and if you didn't understand the disease you can kind of understand that.
Can you imagine how you would feel knowing that someone you shared a town with had done that, I mean biting a razor blade!!!

[aliantha]

Like the urban legends about nuts who put razor blades in apples on trick-or-treat night, the razor-blade-in-the-roll thing struck me as a mean prank more than anything else. You know, kids looking for something to do: "Let's make obscene phone calls!" "No, I know, let's put a razor blade in the leper's rolls!"

I'm not inclined to be charitable toward Megan Roman, either. When you hire a lawyer, the lawyer is required to act in your best interest, so she would have to notify her client about the proposal to rezone Haven Farm, etc. -- in other words, when she did all that stuff for Covenant, she was just doing her job. Yes, he was worth a lotta money to her -- that's probably why she hadn't told him to find another lawyer.

[danlo]

One Halloween Tamara was @ work so I was @ home doing "candy duty". I ran out of candy but the kidz kept on coming so I went 2 the garage and got a bag of apples (that we had just purchased out @ Dixon Farms a couple of days b4) and started handing them out. Tamara called me 2 c how it was going and said "Stop that right away u should know better than 2 give out apples on Halloween!!" Just then her buddy Sabrina got on the line and said "Hey, if ur gonna give out Dixon apples, just stick 2 the apples! They're just kidz 4 gods sake!!:...

[Skyweir]

umm .. I know I am not American .. but is there something fundamentally wrong with giving kids nice healthy apples to eat instead of candy????

There is so much I dont understand about your strange American ways ..

anway .. I must agree with Danlo .. the townsfolk were ignorant and biggotted and townsfullofsonofbitches seems an appropriate designation for them imo.

However I must protest re: the negative attitude towards lawyers .. in the face of the mountains of lawyer jibes and jokes .. they are not a seperate breed of beings .. most still belong to the human race and some even possess a keen sense of humanity.

Megan Roman may well have been self-serving in her allegiance to TC but there are things that she did do that were not part of her professional obligation .. and the very fact that she did entertain these things tells us that she if naught else was possessed of that rare and highly valued quality known as 'integrity' ..

I actually had no qualms with Megan Roman .. and at one point thought she would turn out to be Elena .. some how resurrected or something .. in our world ..

However .. as far as the townsfolk are concerned they really were a disappointing breed of humankind .. seemingly totally devoid of humanity ..

The worst scene that really made me cringe and there were many when it came to the townsfolk .. was the 'Christian Revival' tent scene .. ugghh that was sickening to me ..

Lets not forget that it was the townsfolk mob of religious fanatics that were responsible for his demise .. his cold and heartless murder ..

Real sicko's ..

[aliantha]

There were some incidents in the late '60s/early '70s in the United States where sickos stuck razor blades in apples to be given out on Halloween, and other incidents where people were supposedly giving trick-or-treaters pretty little pills that looked like candy. As a consequence, local hospitals now routinely offer x-ray scanning of trick-or-treat bags on Halloween.

In fact, some places have done away with trick-or-treating altogether, offering the kids a party at the local community center instead. Sometimes the local shopping mall will allow kids to go trick-or-treating from store to store (tho I challenge the wisdom of setting kids up to see the mall as a safe haven, in this country where so many people are in debt up to their eyeballs as a result of their liberal use of "retail therapy", but I digress...). And you get your churches that set up Halloween "haunted houses" featuring such things as bloody aborted fetuses, mangled cars and people due to drunken driving, etc.

And they call this progress....

[KaosArcana]

The ones who kidnapped Joan and stabbed Covenant weren't members of the town, and even if they were, they were thralls of Lord Foul.

Remember when Berenford found Linden and Covenant, the mob had snapped out of their spell-- the woman whose children had sacrified their hands to the fire had even taken them to the emegency because she couldn't understand how she had let them be hurt.

You really can't blame them for what they did any more than you can blame someone who's possessed by a Raver.

[Skyweir]

Berenford when speaking to LA about the townsfolk had this to say ..

He peered at the triangle and the writing, muttered, 'Jesus Saves', under his breath, then sighed. 'Occupational hazard, I've been going to church faithfully in this town for forty years. But since I'm a trained professional who earns a decent living, some of our good people-' He grimaced wryly.'-are always trying to convert me. Ignorance is the only form of innocence they understand.'

'This area has been depressed for a long time. After a while, depressed people do strange things. They try to turn depression into a virtue-they need something to make themselves feel less helpless. What they usually do around here is become evangelical.'

The people in the woods that night were townsfolk .. and yes they were influenced by LF .. or .. their own inner darkness .. but I doubt that LF would have had much power over them if they didn't already possess the propensity for rabbid evangelicism .. or at the very least .. the propensity for ignorance and biggotry ... imho.

I see your point about them not being entirely in control .. but your assertion that their reprehensible actions be absolved .. due to their perceived more passive role as ..innocent agent .. in their involvement with TC and Joan .. imo only holds weight .. sufficient to relieve them of but a degree of their culpability.

even Joan .. who was clearly possessed .. prior to LF's hold over her she was crippled by her own guilt of what TC described to Linden .. her betrayal of him .. (divorce etc) .. TC described her affliction as a disease .. a disease for which there is no mortal cure

When you've tried all the salves in the wold and tehy don't work, you start thinking, about fire. Burn out the pain. She wanted to punish herself, find some kind of abnegation to match her personal rot'

She was drawn for her souls salvation and absolution .. to religous cult following/worship .. the most extreme form of religous fanatacism imaginable ..

I do feel sorry for Joan .. it was her guilt over abandoning TC that led her to that dark place in her soul ..

I really dont think LF could have manipulated the actions of the townsfolk if they weren't maleable to his influence ..

Its similar I think with persons who are drawn to any ill thing .. cult worship .. religous fanatacism .. crime .. drugs/alchohol .. neo-nazi movements .. The Klu Klux Klan .. displaying 'bloody aborted feotuses' at a childrens Halloween Party .. or any other kind of sick twisted movement/association/behaviour ..

The townsfolk were drawn to the evangelical notions of the likes of 'Dr' Sam Johnson's (revivalist and 'healer') Easter Health Crusade .. in the hopes of a quick fix to their ills .. physical, spiritual/emotional or mental ..

religous fanatacism, the opium of the ignorant ..

It really grieves me that concepts like religion and spirituality have become so corrupted that these .. originally once guiding concepts .. have become commonly associated with negative and unhealthy and imbalanced mindsets/metality and behaviour.

It doesn't reflect well, on those of us, that still value fundamental spiritual priniciples .. though it does aid in our desire for detachment from all forms of fanatacism impo.

anyway just some stray thoughts ..

[aliantha]

You brought up a point that I was getting kind of close to in my "Halloween" post, but I decided to steer clear of it when I wrote it.

IMHO, spirituality is a great thing -- but extremely personal. Religion can be a great thing -- but it can also be corrupted into fundamentalism and/or fanaticism. Interesting that SRD has Foul -- the personification of evil -- as the corrupting agent for the religious beliefs of those who eventually kill Covenant. The townspeople, in their ignorance, allowed evil to get a foothold. Not even their religion was safe from evil influences.

And it occurs to me that we could even draw a parallel between the corruption of the townsfolk's religion and the corruption of the Land by the Sunbane -- both corruptions courtesy of Lord Foul.

[Guest]

Skyweir wrote:

It really grieves me that concepts like religion and spirituality have become so corrupted that these .. originally once guiding concepts .. have become commonly associated with negative and unhealthy and imbalanced mindsets/metality and behaviour.

I'm reading an extremely interesting and thought provoking book that talks about this issue (among others). It's called "The Lucifer Principle" by Howard Bloom.
Bloom introduces the notion of meme (aka gene) a self replicating cluster of ideas. Religion is one such meme. Here are some quotes from his book:

Humans grab at ideas because ideas knit them together in groups of people who agree with them. They provide the comfort of companionship and mutual aid. ... But why does a meme grab onto humans? So it can use a social bunch as a tool for self-expansion, driving a superorganism like a tank. Memes have an ultimate ambition: taking vast chunks of the world into their possesion and restructuring it according to their form.
It may seem strange to call a meme ambitious, but the mere shape of a successful meme dictates its acquisitive behavior. In fact the evolutionary race between concepts guarantees that those that develop the cleverest lures are most likely to survive. Take for example the religious memes that include the notion of hell. Anyone who doesn't bite the hook enthusiastically is guaranteed a dire fate indeed. ...
humans by the score allow unprovable concepts to take up residence in their skulls. ...The successful meme, like any parasite, has barbs with which to prevent the would-be rationalist from shaking it out of his system. Only those will be saved, says the religious meme, who have faith. And what is faith? It is a blind and unquestioning conviction, an absolute willingness to harbor the meme forever, never trying to dislodge it from your gullet.

According to this, concepts cannot be corrupt, the same as genes can't be corrupt. They are just in a competition for survival, and the most successful ones win and spread. What a thought!

-pitch

[Bannor]

The Lucifer's Principle's definition of faith is right on. I am bounded in Christian faith, with the Bible being a source that has never been disproven (no matter how many knowedgeable people try). Hell is a real place that no Christian would wish on anyone. I dread the day when I should ever want to "dislodge" my Christian faith "from my gullet." I will not apologize for the Gospel, nor am I ashamed of it. If you are ashamed of Me to others, I will be ashamed of you to My Father.

[danlo]

Oh now were getting too religious! (humor) Nothing wrong with having faith in the good as long as u back it up w/positive energy, good deeds, reaching out 2 a fellow human in need and an open heart. But please keep ur MIND open! Heaven & Hell can exist on Earth, Hell is a waste of time and energy and really hurts those who care about us--I've been there...way 2 boring...

[Hearthcoal]

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." - The Epistle to the Hebrews 11:1

I, too, am a follower of Jesus Christ (Romans 1:16, 17). We have had some pretty rousing discussions about religion, spirituality and personal beliefs over at 'Religion' what is it?. Check it out.

Personally, there are times when I am not comfortable telling others that I am a Christian. Not because I am "ashamed" of Jesus, or the Gospel, rather because I am ashamed of the behavior of other Christians and at times of my own behavior. I am reminded of what the Apostle Paul said about self-righteous Jews in Romans 2:24 "For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles [unblievers - no pun intended] through you." Ouch!

Anyway, that is way, way off topic (what was the topic? Oh, yeah: Lord Foul's Name). But if you want to discuss faith a little more, drop by 'Religion' what is it?

[Bannor]

Always glad to meet a fellow Christian, Hearthcoal. I realized it was off topic, but the Lucifer's Principle preceded my reply, and I didn't want to let that go without a comment. I apologize for getting off topic. Danlo, I guess there all kinds of heavens and hells. My dictionary lists 5 for heaven and 4 for hell (my favorite for hell is an archaic usage: a tailor's receptacle), but all of the definitions for hell sound very foul. HEY, I'm back on topic again (talking about the Lord and foul!)!!

[Bannor]

Boy, my mistake: thought I was in the Lord Foul's Name Forum! Sheesh!