Changing Perspectives On Gender.

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Post by Skyweir »

I found this interesting as it touched slightly on the adjustment it is for parents of trans ~ cuz it’s got to be quite a thing to come to grips with and understand how to best support your child.

https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump ... aec0faca48
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Post by SoulBiter »

Seems your link is broken. It takes me to a "Page not found"
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Post by Wosbald »

+MJ+
SoulBiter wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:19 pm
Skyweir wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:51 am I found this interesting as it touched slightly on the adjustment it is for parents of trans ~ cuz it’s got to be quite a thing to come to grips with and understand how to best support your child.

https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump ... aec0faca48
Seems your link is broken. It takes me to a "Page not found"
Psst. I think it's this 'un.

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Other nations shaking heads at US transgender toilet battle


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Post by SoulBiter »

Ahhhh yes.. its a bit old but some good stuff in there. In some cases it seems that eliminating gender entirely (gender neutral) is where some are going so that those that are Trans will not easily stand out and become more easily accepted.

Personally I have empathy for those that are going through gender dysphoria. It has to be extremely difficult to navigate and I cant even imagine not being welcome in my own skin (so to speak). But I also have empathy for those that believe they are having to give up their own privacy, their own ideas of gender, the way they have lived their lives and frankly the way people have lived for generations. Including for some their own belief system, to ensure that the 1% (maybe less or maybe more) are not forgotten or discriminated against.
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SoulBiter wrote: And society is still trying to figure this out. I suspect as, with many laws and legislation, there will never be a perfect solution through legislation and it will go back and forth. A little empathy all around would go a long way. But with people it can be "all about me" or "all about my and my kid", forgetting that there are other kids, on both sides that are also trying to grapple with this.
^ This. ^ More empathy.

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Post by Fist and Faith »

SoulBiter wrote: to ensure that the 1% (maybe less or maybe more) are not forgotten or discriminated against.
That is literally the most important thing of all. We should always work until we find the solution. There won't always be a perfect solution that makes everyone happy. In many cases, though, "unhappy" is only uncomfortable, and angry because what makes you uncomfortable isn't forbidden.
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Post by Skyweir »

Truth … and absolutely empathy is key … that’s the key to being open to changes in our own thinking and enable our willingness to be open to solutions.

And thank you Wos for fixing that link 🙏♥️
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Post by Obi-Wan Nihilo »

Sex and gender are not the same thing. Sex is a biological truth, and there are two sexes, period. In a few exceptionally rare cases, a child is delivered with either both sets of sex organs, or no fully developed sex organs. For those exceedingly rare children, sex is assigned at birth and surgery takes place to ensure that the body mimics the assigned sex.

Gender is a bunch of made-up social constructs, and has nothing to do with the physical body. Any first-semester medical student can look at a skeleton and definitively tell if the skull and pelvis are from a man or a woman, regardless of what the deceased "identified" as.

In the history of human medical knowledge, no human has ever switched sexes. It's biologically impossible.

The "trans" thing happening now is problematic, to say the least. It's a social contagion, spread by pervasive social media to children who were isolated and alienated during the Covid lockdowns. It's a cynical way of separating children from their parents, as CPS has taken children away from their parents if they don't call them by their preferred pronouns, and therapy for these kids is compared to, "conversion therapy" for homosexuals. It's immensely damaging to gay kids who are urged to transition rather than just be attracted to the same sex (Andrew Sullivan has written about this at length). It's nonsensical, as we don't allow children to drink, vote, etc, but we're allowing them to make irreversible medical choices without their parents' knowledge or consent. And it's a moneymaker for Big Pharma, as a "transitioned" child will require a lifetime of drugs.

I do not care what consenting adults do to themselves, but I will not be quiet about the irreversible mutilation and sexualization of children.
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Post by Skyweir »

I don’t think anyone can argue FOR the irreversible mutilation or sexualisation of children. And I don’t ascribe to any theory that it’s in any way conspiratorial aimed at separating children from their parents.

Not sure any right thinking human including the LGBT community support any of that nasty stuff (irreversible mutilation or sexualisation of children).

In the US are there states that are enabling irreversible mutilation or sexualisation of children?

Cuz here persons need to be over the age of 16 for “top surgery”, or 18 for “bottom surgery” because of the irreversible nature of surgical remedies.

And down under consent is significantlu belaboured and determined by the courts - with all parties (not just the child/minor in question) in agreement (parents/medical professionals).


Hormone therapies are entirely reversible and most measures to support trans children are not unreasonable in my opinion. From using gender neutral terminology to unisex bathrooms etc.
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Post by Avatar »

Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote: Sex and gender are not the same thing. Sex is a biological truth, and there are two sexes, period.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... mplistic1/

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Post by SoulBiter »

And yet at least 99.7% of people easily identify very easily into which sex they believe they belong to.

Edit to add - The above just points out that even if there are places in the middle, for 99.7% of people the two gender "rule" continues to apply. So even if their Chromosomes may not align 100%, they don't even know it. So then, have they tested gender dysphoric people to see where they find themselves on the Chromosome ruler? Is there a specific point on it where scientists can say "Aha!" or are we really just looking for answers?
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Post by Skyweir »

Fascinating article Av 👌 I’ve certainly learned quite a bit more than I understood previously (which wasn’t very much). I had a limited understanding of intersex conditions, or differences or disorders of sex development (DSDs).
One set of cells carried two X chromosomes, the complement that typically makes a person female; the other had an X and a Y. Halfway through her fifth decade and pregnant with her third child, the woman learned for the first time that a large part of her body was chromosomally male.
These discoveries do not sit well in a world in which sex is still defined in binary terms. Few legal systems allow for any ambiguity in biological sex, and a person's legal rights and social status can be heavily influenced by whether their birth certificate says male or female.

“The main problem with a strong dichotomy is that there are intermediate cases that push the limits and ask us to figure out exactly where the dividing line is between males and females,” says Arthur Arnold at the University of California, Los Angeles, who studies biological sex differences. “And that's often a very difficult problem, because sex can be defined a number of ways.”

Gene mutations affecting gonad development can result in a person with XY chromosomes developing typically female characteristics, whereas alterations in hormone signalling can cause XX individuals to develop along male lines.

These discoveries have pointed to a complex process of sex determination, in which the identity of the gonad emerges from a contest between two opposing networks of gene activity. Changes in the activity or amounts of molecules (such as WNT4) in the networks can tip the balance towards or away from the sex seemingly spelled out by the chromosomes. “It has been, in a sense, a philosophical change in our way of looking at sex; that it's a balance,” says Eric Vilain, a clinician and the director of the Center for Gender-Based Biology at the University of California, Los Angeles. “It's more of a systems-biology view of the world of sex.”

immunologist Lee Nelson and her team at the University of Washington in Seattle found XY cells in post-mortem samples of women's brains. The oldest woman carrying male DNA was 94 years old. Other studies have shown that these immigrant cells are not idle; they integrate into their new environment and acquire specialized functions, including (in mice at least) forming neurons in the brain. But what is not known is how a peppering of male cells in a female, or vice versa, affects the health or characteristics of a tissue—for example, whether it makes the tissue more susceptible to diseases more common in the opposite sex.
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Post by Skyweir »

SoulBiter wrote: And yet at least 99.7% of people easily identify very easily into which sex they believe they belong to.

Edit to add - The above just points out that even if there are places in the middle, for 99.7% of people the two gender "rule" continues to apply. So even if their Chromosomes may not align 100%, they don't even know it. So then, have they tested gender dysphoric people to see where they find themselves on the Chromosome ruler? Is there a specific point on it where scientists can say "Aha!" or are we really just looking for answers?
Is there a source for that estimate ~ Id be interested in reading it.

Avs article from Scientific American demonstrates that intersex and DSDs are far more common than popularly believed.

And if it’s a significant minority as you suggest SB per your assertion that it’s 0.3% does that in your opinion make supporting that 3% less right?

Cuz that’s not how I read your previous comments.
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Post by Skyweir »

wayfriend wrote:
Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote: It's a social contagion, spread by pervasive social media to children who were isolated and alienated during the Covid lockdowns. It's a cynical way of separating children from their parents
Thanks for posting about people's intents and motive ... Wait ... ok, username isn't on the list, this is permitted ... as I say, thanks!
To be fair Nihilo has cleverly ascribed his sweeping generalised comments about transgenderism to an unidentified source of a conspiratorial character with some nefarious agenda, presuming a level of extreme x-societal coordination of unknown social interests for the sole purpose of separating innocent yet arguably confused children of the 0.3% from their parents.

Presumably this conspirator has a plan with respect to raising, sheltering, feeding and educating those children in the absence of their legal guardians.

That part of the conspiracy has not been made clear.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Maybe he doesn't know their plans in that detail.
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Post by Skyweir »

Whose plans?

Who are these conveniently unidentified entities?

And although their agenda has been clearly stated ~ how is it coordinated or realised?

These are characteristics of sweeping generalisations though so rarely do they produce such salient details.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Skyweir wrote: Whose plans?

Who are these conveniently unidentified entities?
The people taking children away from parents. That's who Nihilo is talking about, and whose plans after the taking you are asking about, neh? Maybe Nihilo does not know what their plans for feeding the taken children are.

Edit:. I should have left references to Nihilo out of this post. The intent of the rule of not specifying/referring to another poster is to stop anyone from accusing the other person of any ill intentions. Obviously, I am not accusing him of ill intentions here. However, I'm still referencing him, and the rule needs to be applied to all situations.
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Post by SoulBiter »

Skyweir wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 2:22 am
SoulBiter wrote: And yet at least 99.7% of people easily identify very easily into which sex they believe they belong to.

Edit to add - The above just points out that even if there are places in the middle, for 99.7% of people the two gender "rule" continues to apply. So even if their Chromosomes may not align 100%, they don't even know it. So then, have they tested gender dysphoric people to see where they find themselves on the Chromosome ruler? Is there a specific point on it where scientists can say "Aha!" or are we really just looking for answers?
Is there a source for that estimate ~ Id be interested in reading it.

Avs article from Scientific American demonstrates that intersex and DSDs are far more common than popularly believed.

And if it’s a significant minority as you suggest SB per your assertion that it’s 0.3% does that in your opinion make supporting that 3% less right?

Cuz that’s not how I read your previous comments.
My source was just math.... although I was off by .2% because I was using round figures out of my head rather than looking it up. There are appx 334M people in the USA and 1.6M identify as Transgender. 1.6/334 = .48% of the USA identify as transgender.

What I was getting at, that is getting lost, is that even though science may have identified all these gray areas in between X and Y Chromosomes and genetics, it seems that they have not nailed down IF that is why we have people that mentally feel out of place in their own gender. How many of the 332.4M that seem to correctly identify with their gender also fall into the same gray area? Sounds like quite a lot from the article.

No where did I say we should not support this .5%. But I also do not want to upend the rights to privacy for the other 99.5% to make .5% "feel" more included. Which is also why society is still trying to find an answer.

Here is something else to consider. A number of people that identified as trans or gender non conforming, decided later they were actually their birth gender. I tried to look percentages to that as well, but as with all studies you find, there are as many that will show very high percentages as their are studies to debunk those studies, and studies to debunk the debunk studies. Somewhere between 13% and 48%. Which says to me that some kids are exploring sexuality and may not be trans but rather grappling with hormones they cant understand, which in some cases leads them to think they might be trans or gender non conforming.

All that said, there really is still no definitive way (currently) to determine a truly scientific answer to why.
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Post by Obi-Wan Nihilo »

Avatar wrote:
Obi-Wan Nihilo wrote: Sex and gender are not the same thing. Sex is a biological truth, and there are two sexes, period.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... mplistic1/

--A
Addressed in my post. Those cases are extremely rare, and are the result of a genetic mistake. You will not find a single medical text that states that there are more than two sexes. You will find medical texts stating that in certain very rare cases there are intersex children born who carry genetic coding for both male and female.

I will not respond to the personal jabs, as it was my understanding that we weren't doing that any more.

https://reason.com/volokh/2022/10/21/co ... -identity/

https://www.iwf.org/identity-crisis-jeannette/

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/16/health/o ... index.html

https://nypost.com/2022/02/26/dad-lost- ... -identity/

Gender dysphoria is a recognized mental illness.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-con ... c-20475255

Puberty blockers are not benign.

https://acpeds.org/transgender-interven ... m-children

https://www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lup ... -problems/

https://katv.com/news/nation-world/fda- ... hel-levine

There were 203 minors who received "top surgery" in 2021.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/26/heal ... agers.html
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Post by Obi-Wan Nihilo »

SoulBiter wrote: Here is something else to consider. A number of people that identified as trans or gender non conforming, decided later they were actually their birth gender. I tried to look percentages to that as well, but as with all studies you find, there are as many that will show very high percentages as their are studies to debunk those studies, and studies to debunk the debunk studies. Somewhere between 13% and 48%. Which says to me that some kids are exploring sexuality and may not be trans but rather grappling with hormones they cant understand, which in some cases leads them to think they might be trans or gender non conforming.

All that said, there really is still no definitive way (currently) to determine a truly scientific answer to why.
Agreed.

And nothing in my posts says that I don't believe in getting people the help they need.

But we're in completely foreign territory here, and the power of Big Pharma in this conversation cannot be denied. When dissent is shouted down, and comments like the above are made when someone suggests that we need to tread lightly when irreversible, life-altering medical decisions are being made by or for children, there's a problem.

I urge all of you to read some of these people's stories.

https://www.reddit.com/r/detrans/?rdt=34622
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