Which Bloodguard was assigned to protect Lord Foul?

[Believer]

Hm. I read that passage as saying that Kevin suspected that Lord X could be Foul, but wasn't sure. And since Foul passed the tests of truth, Kevin figured it wasn't Foul...

?

[Durris]

Kevin had only his suspicions, his fears; but those must have been deep indeed, for the Lords did not lightly subject anyone to the tests of truth. The same kind of bravado that made him refuse to fight the Haruchai must have been at work: he would not take precautions against this new Lord, however his heart misgave him, because 'innocence is glorified by its vulnerability'.

Kevin's refusal to fight the Haruchai doesn't seem to me to have been quite the same as his refusal to take precautions against Foul. As feral and extravagant as the Haruchai besiegers were, in their unarmed and unensorceled might they were no real match for Kevin's Council, who had weapons and lore that couldn't have been answered in kind by fists alone (however faithful). The Haruchai would never imagine or admit this situation, but Kevin did. I can't find the exact passage right now (I think it's in LFB rather than GF), but Bannor ends up telling Covenant in so many words that Kevin declined to fight them lest he destroy them. He was the stronger partner in the conflict. (And I suspect the Haruchai perception of his greater strength was a major ingredient in the Vow.) In Kevin's declining to take precautions against Foul, Kevin was the weaker partner.

But Arthur had no reason for suspicion when he married Guinevere, whereas Kevin appears to have given Lordship to Foul against the better judgement of his heart.

*flinch* That rings painfully true. But why did Kevin override what his heart was trying to tell him? I rather doubt that pride alone would have sufficed. In many of the other instances I've seen where someone disregards such signals, guilt or duty or an "emperor's new clothes" phenomenon, or the mistaken assumption that the perceived danger lies in oneself rather than the other, have been factors.

Another case in the literature, drawn from the same well of myth and philosophy, is Tolkien's Ar-Pharazôn, last King of Númenor. He accepted the surrender of Sauron and brought him to Númenor as a prisoner and vassal; and he was fooled into thinking that Sauron's submission was genuine, and that he had reformed and would truly serve the King. The outcome was the Downfall of Númenor, a catastrophe as great as the Ritual of Desecration. This parallel is particularly apposite, given the analogous roles of Foul and Sauron, and the many influences that SRD and Tolkien had in common.

Yikes. You've said a mouthful.

Ar-Pharazôn's motivations were more "fallen" than most. Not only did he will to believe that Sauron would be his true servant, but he was already resentful and jealous of the Valar and suspicious of the Elf-friends, else he wouldn't have ruled under a Númenorean-language name rather than a High-Elven one as his ancestors had. Consequently, I've never regarded the Downfall of Númenor as being primarily the work of Sauron. Though Sauron's malice was certainly part of it, he found his opportunity already made.

but the theme of excessive trust and consequent retribution is a common one in literature, and almost always there are warnings that the tragic hero ignores out of pride. So it was with Kevin: that, at any rate, is how I read the case.

"Excessive trust and consequent retribution" is also a good description for the experience of the Bloodguard under Kevin's leadership. At the time of the Vow there weren't visible warnings of his coming despair for them to have ignored. Yet in the years after the Desecration they must have gone over and over Kevin's whole trajectory, seeing the signs retrospectively and blaming themselves for having "ignored" what actually had never come onto their radar. Not pride so much as innocence itself, the will to be loyal and the need to see the recipient of that loyalty as worthy of it, was their undoing.

Thank you for a deep, learned, and thought-provoking post. *bows to the High Lord Emeritus*

[Fist and Faith]

Here you go, Durris. From The Council of Lords:

Flatly, Bannor said, "When we came to the Land, we saw wonders - Giants, Ranyhyn, Revelstone - Lords of such power that they declined to wage war with us lest we be destroyed. In answer to our challenge, they gave to the Haruchai gifts so precious-" He paused, appeared to muse for a moment over private memories. "Therefore we swore the Vow. We could not equal that generosity in any other way."

And this is from GILDEN-FIRE:

Their war-making did not go far. Almost at once, the great stone gates under the watchtower swung wide, and High Lord Kevin rode out to meet his besiegers. He was mounted on a grand Ranyhyn and accompanied by half his Council, one Eoman of the Warward, and a coterie of grinning Giants. Solemnly, Kevin listened while First Mark Tuvor delivered his terms of war; and some power of the Staff of Law enabled the High Lord to understand the Haruchai tongue. Then he declared so all the Haruchai might grasp his meaning that under no circumstances would he fight the invaders. He declined to make war. Instead, he invited the five commanders into Revelstone to the hospitality of the Lords. And though they expected treachery, they accepted, because they were proud.

The great gates stood open for three days while the Haruchai commanders tasted the grandeur of Revelstone. They experienced the laughing genial power of the Giants who had made the Keep, received the confident offer of Kevin's Council to supply the Haruchai freely whatever they needed for as long as their need lasted. When the commanders returned to their army, they sat astride prancing Ranyhyn, which had come from the Plains of Ra at Kevin's call and had chosen to bear the Haruchai. Korik and his peers were of one mind. Something new was upon them, something beyond instinctive kinship with Ranyhyn, beyond friendship and awe for the Giants, beyond even the fine entrancement of Revelstone itself. The Haruchai were fighters, accustomed to wrest what they required: they could not accept gifts without making meet return.

The Haruchai saw nothing in Kevin but kindness, generosity, patience, and forbearance, and I don't see any reason they don't to think anything like bravado was at work.

But back to Kevin/Foul. This is Foul in Invitation to a Betrayal:

"Kevin was a fool - fey, anile and gutless. They are all fools. Look you, groveler. The mighty High Lord Kevin, son of Loric and great-grandson of Berek Lord-Fatherer whom I hate, stood where you now kneel, and he thought to destroy me. He discovered my designs, recognized some measure of my true stature - though the dotard had set me on his right side in the Council for long years without sensing his peril - saw at the last who I was.

This is Atiaran in The Dawn of the Message:

"For many many long years the Land lived on in peace. But during that time, the Gray Slayer rose up in the guise of a friend. In some way, the eyes of Kevin were blinded, and he accepted his enemy as a friend and Lord. And for that reason, the Lords and all their works passed from the Earth."

And Mhoram in Treacher's Gorge:

"Before that time, Kevin Landwaster doubted Lord Foul without knowing why - for the Despiser had enacted no ill which Kevin could discover - and he showed trust for Lord Foul out of shame for his unworthy doubt. Then, through the Despiser's plotting, a message came to the Council of Lords from the Demondim in Mount Thunder. The message asked the Lords to come to the Demondim loreworks, the spawning crypts where the ur-viles were made, to meet with the loremasters, who claimed knowledge of a secret power.

"Clearly, Lord Foul intended for Kevin to go to Mount Thunder. But the High Lord doubted, and did not go. Then he was ashamed of his doubt, and sent in his stead some of his truest friends and strongest allies."

Kevin clearly didn't have any idea who Foul was when he made him a member of the Council. He began to doubt, though he didn't know why. When those "truest friends and strongest allies" were ambushed, Kevin knew his doubts were accurate. But even then, we don't know that he knew his enemy was Foul. Foul may have revealed who he was at that point, or waited until later in the war.

But we know that Kevin knew who he was before the Ritual of Desecration, because the fact that the Power of Command would have no power over Foul was one reason he didn't try to use it to win the war. So they didn't meet in Kiril Threndor, with Kevin expecting the Ritual to destroy his enemy, only to discover then who his enemy was, and understand that he, Foul, would survive.

[danlo]

What's the quote about the Foul's encounter with the High Wood in Revelstone-he passes the test but then keeps the High Wood apart from him from then on...? (Something like that...)

[Fist and Faith]

I'm not sure about that one. But after Covenant whacks Baradakas, Atiaran says:

"In the older age, when High Lord Kevin trusted the Gray Slayer, he was given priceless gifts of orcrest and lomillialor. The tale says that these gifts were soon lost - but while the Gray Slayer possessed them they did not reject him. It is possible for Despite to wear the guise of truth. Perhaps the wild magic surpasses truth."

[danlo]

That's it! O Quote Master!

It is possible for Despite to wear the guise of truth.

this is the part I was really looking for: perhaps this guise even fooled the Bloodguard...for the time being.

[Durris]

Fist and Faith quoted SRD:

"Before that time, Kevin Landwaster doubted Lord Foul without knowing why - for the Despiser had enacted no ill which Kevin could discover - and he showed trust for Lord Foul out of shame for his unworthy doubt.

Yikes. That motivation has absolute verisimilitude.

It is possible for Despite to wear the guise of truth.

this is the part I was really looking for: perhaps this guise even fooled the Bloodguard...for the time being.

And left them kicking themselves--and testing everyone and everything with unending vigilance--for the rest of their history. Maybe that legacy is one of the reasons Cail regarded Linden for a time

Spoiler

(even before there was visible reason)

as an agent of Corruption hiding under her perceived good faith.

[Fist and Faith]

Yeah, danlo, that idea was on my mind too. Specifically this one, by Kevin, that someone quoted recently on one thread or other:

"When evil rises in its full power, it surpasses truth and may wear the guise of good without fear of discovery. In that way was I brought to my own doom."

[dANdeLION]

I doubt that the Lords had Bloodguard as their personal bodyguards in the days of Kevin. After all, the Land was in peace, and there was no sign of corruption. My guess is that the offense of being sent away to safety while Kevin desecrated the Land, coupled with Kevin desecrating the Land (which is what the Haruchai fell in love with, anyway) is what spurred the Bllodguard to fine-tune their service to assigning personal bodyguards, both to protect the Lords, and to ward against another Lord attemping desecration. But this brings up another point; namely, did a Ranyhin choose to Let Lord Foul ride him?

[Durris]

As much as it sickens me to think of it, Foul apparently could override the Law-fulness of other things of Earthpower enough to disguise himself, if the orcrest and lomillialor didn't expose him. Maybe the poor Ranyhyn didn't have a choice. Certainly we're shown that they're susceptible to coercion by surpassing powers, in how they responded to Covenant and the white gold.



*Durris tears robes; Muirne of the Ranyhyn...expresses a condign opinion*

[duchess of malfi]

It's funny, Fist. I read those same quotes and get the idea that Kevin was fully aware of who Foul had been -- but not who he was. ie Kevin knew that Foul had once been an enemy of the Land, but took him in as a Council member when he seemed to have been reformed...hence the testing with the wood and stone...and Kevin had doubts in his heart, and felt ashamed of those doubts, since Foul had passed all of the tests -- and, of course, in the end, those doubts proved to be all too true...

That would add, of course, to Kevin's madness and despair...

[Fist and Faith]

dAN, it may be that the Haruchai fell in love with the Land (i.e. the Ranyhyn, Giants, Revelstone, etc), but it was the gifts they received that, it could be said, forced them (they could not accept gifts without making meet return) to take the Vow.

And your theory that there were no specific guards for specific Old Lords is very interesting!! I can't for the live of me imagine the New Lords' personal guards leaving their charges because of any Lord's order! Maybe Kevin said, "Look, here's the plan. All of you go into the mountains. I'll yadda yadda, then you attack over there." But Elena said, "Morin, you are the First Mark. You will command the Bloodguard as your Vow requires. Please assign to Warmark Troy every Bloodguard who can be spared from the defense of Revelstone." She probably knew darned well that she couldn't order all the Bloodguard, particularly not Morin, Bannor, Thomin, and the rest who guarded specific Lords, to help Troy. And if they had been guarding the individual Old Lords also, Kevin couldn't have ordered them out either.

And while we're on the Vow, here's a great quote from G-F:

When the Haruchai entered Revelstone and announced their purpose to the Council, High Lord Kevin was dismayed. Like the Lord Mhoram in the later age, Kevin was at times gifted or blighted with presciences; and he treated the Vow as if it proferred disaster. He insisted strangely that the Haruchai had maimed themselves; he strove to refuse the service, so much was he taken aback - and so little did he understand the firece hearts of these people.

I especially love what I bolded.

Durris, the Ranyhyn didn't choose to bear every New Lord, so maybe they didn't choose to bear Foul either. Even if they couldn't explain their doubts any better than Kevin could, they may have felt them also. And, unlike Kevin, they don't necessarily have to feel guilty for making the decision to not trust.

duchess, I don't buy it. Although nothing comes right out and supports your interpretation, most of the passages would, I suppose, seem to leave room for it. But Mhoram's is really pushing it, imo.

"Before that time, Kevin Landwaster doubted Lord Foul without knowing why - for the Despiser had enacted no ill which Kevin could discover - and he showed trust for Lord Foul out of shame for his unworthy doubt."

If he had known that Foul had once been an enemy of the Land, he wouldn't have had to look for new Foul-deeds to justify not giving carte blanche. He could have kept Foul around to keep an eye on him, but I couldn't see him putting a known enemy, whatever claims of reformation he may have made, "on his right side in the Council."

I don't know!

[duchess of malfi]

At the first, it was to his honour that the Despiser could gain Lordship from him — Lordship, and access to his heart. Was not Fangthane witnessed and approved by the orcrest and lomillialor tests of truth? Innocence is glorified by its vulnerability.

The Lords are not people who would condemn someone for past deeds if that person seemed truly repentent -- as witness their treatment of Covenant. As long as Foul committed no new misdeeds, and he passed the tests of truth, I can see Kevin and company accepting him.

The remarks of Kevin's blindness, not knowing his enemy, etc. could all be easliy explained by Foul completely pulling the wool over Kevin's eyes.

[danlo]

It wasn't as if Kevin was busy with many other matters, to say the least!

[Fist and Faith]

The Lords are not people who would condemn someone for past deeds if that person seemed truly repentent

The New Lords are not, but I'm not taking any bets on the Old. We have such a murky understanding of the differences between the Oath-less Lords and the New that I wouldn't be surprised if the Old did not give second chances to known enemies of the Land.

The remarks of Kevin's blindness, not knowing his enemy, etc. could all be easliy explained by Foul completely pulling the wool over Kevin's eyes.

Exactly. But, since I don't think Kevin thought his friend had once been an enemy of the Land, I've always thought that meant that Kevin's abilities to see someone's true nature and/or intent (abilities that include tricks with the Staff of Law, his presciences, detective skills that would allow him to piece together any inconsistencies in Foul's story and actions, etc) was being seriously blocked by Foul. Foul couldn't stop it entirely, or Kevin wouldn't have "doubted Lord Foul without knowing why." But Kevin couldn't put the pieces together well enough.

Hey, just my theory, eh?

[duchess of malfi]

I think we'll just have to agree on disagreeing on this one, Fisty.

[Fist and Faith]

I don't have to agree to any such thing!!!!!

[Furls Fire]

Oh, now see? I'm not the only one arguing about Kevin it seems....

[Fist and Faith]

I was wondering when you'd comment on this topic! Naturally, I assume you're not on my side!

[Mystikan]

Here's one to think about: What if the flip side of the Oath of Peace was the gift of Land-sight? Consider these factors:

1) If the Old Lords had no Oath of Peace, they might lack some aspect of the Land-sight that Atiaran's people took for granted. In this way, the Despiser could hoodwink the Lords because they couldn't <i>see</i> him.
2) The only "new" people Lord Foul or his agents could hoodwink were the people of Soaring Woodhelven, when Jehannum paid them a visit, but even then they didn't like him - and their children <i>saw</i> him. Other than this one discrepancy, none of the people who swore the Oath of Peace ever mistook Lord Foul or his agents for anything other than what they were, nor did he try to convince anyone he had reformed.
3) The people of the Land in the Second Chronicles had no Land-sight because they had sworn no Oath of Peace. Therefore they could be deluded as to the nature of Lord Foul (as a-Jeroth) because they couldn't <i>see</i>.
4) And now, here's the kicker: Linden Avery DID have the Land-sight because she was a <i>doctor</i>, and as such would have sworn the Hippocratic Oath - our equivalent of the Oath of Peace. Never to kill, always to strive to save life - this is the central element of both Oaths. Thus, when she came to the land, she would be eligible for Land-sight since she had effectively sworn the Oath of Peace.

So even as the Oath of Peace had the effect of blinding the new Lords to Kevin's Lore, it had the flip side of giving them Land-sight so they could not be hoodwinked again. I think that the effect of the Oath of Peace "rubbed off" on TC in the First Chronicles because that was how the Earthpower was being "channelled" at the time, and his white gold ring would have operated in empathy with that. Thus he gained the Land-sight in the First Chronicles. In the Second Chronicles, the Earthpower had been subverted to the Sunbane, and his white ring was now <i>venomous</i>, corrupted as the Earthpower was corrupted - so he didn't get the Land-sight the second go around. And the kinship between Sunbane and leprosy would have attuned him to the wild magic more than the Land in its health, which he opposed - hence his improved ability to use the wild magic in the Second Chronicles.

So, if you consider the Oath of Peace as a factor in being able to Detect Evil(<i>(tm) roll 1d8 against your Wisdom score</i> ) it's easy to see how the old Lords could be hoodwinked - and since the Earthpower was being "channelled" in an unPeaceful way (ergo Kevin's Lore), that would blind the Earthpowerful beings, like the Haruchai and Ranyhyn, as well. The limitations of such beings is that their power, great as it is, is confined to the <i>expression</i> of that Earthpower, which they themselves cannot alter. The Land humans, not being creatures of Earthpower as are the Haruchai and Ranyhyn, thus have the ability to refocus the Earthpower, being "outside" it as they are - but then they lack the Earthpowerful superhumanity of the Haruchai and the Ranyhyn. In this case, not only would the Lords have been hoodwinked, so would the Haruchai - <i>and the Ranyhyn</i>. So I consider it entirely possible that a) Lord Foul had a devoted Bloodguard attendant, and b) that a Ranyhyn bore him.

Thinking of it this way makes the Desecration all the more poignant and tragic - that those closest to the Land and the Earthpower could not see it coming.