For or against capital punishment?

[Skyweir]

I agree it is egregious should one innocent person be tried for a crime they did not commit, and be sentenced for a crime they did not commit and be punished for a crime they did not commit.

And reprehensible that any one be put to death for a crime they did not commit.

That’s 100% an indictment against the system.

Accountability should apply to all levels of the justice, judicial and corrections systems.

Systems aren’t perfect ~ but there are clearly established benchmarks to be adhered to.

With the US having privatised their corrections facilities what oversight and accountability are they subject to?

[SoulBiter]

It is egregious but its going to happen and it has happened and it will continue to happen. Why? Because people are imperfect and its an imperfect system. That's not just in the US but all over the world.

But its not 100% an indictment against the system because what would you replace it with? Another imperfect system? No I see it as a message that we have to always stay on guard and to look for those times when people have been wrongly incarcerated. Today, all over the world, people are released from years (if not decades) in jail because of improvements in DNA that exonerates them. In the future maybe we will be able to read minds and know for sure if someone is guilty or not.

There does need to be better oversight in Corrections. As with anything where money (and people) are involved, it is fraught with fraud. Judges accepting bribes to hand out longer sentences, etc etc. But this is just an example of one type of fraud that happens when you have "people, money, and lack of oversight/transparency". In Cincinnati the local city govt officials were taking bribes from private companies to award contracts. Some were giving inside information via texts and then deleting those texts. (Which is also illegal). That was just in the last few years.

I bring that up to say that although we are talking specifically about Corrections, we also see it in non-privatized parts of our govt. When we see and find it, we should not just hold those people accountable but put in place ways to ensure that it cant happen again. However again with people involved, someone will either think they are smarter than the system, or will find ways around the oversight. Sadly it seems to be human nature.

[Skyweir]

It is egregious but its going to happen and it has happened and it will continue to happen. Why? Because people are imperfect and its an imperfect system. That's not just in the US but all over the world.

But its not 100% an indictment against the system because what would you replace it with? Another imperfect system? No I see it as a message that we have to always stay on guard and to look for those times when people have been wrongly incarcerated. Today, all over the world, people are released from years (if not decades) in jail because of improvements in DNA that exonerates them. In the future maybe we will be able to read minds and know for sure if someone is guilty or not.

There does need to be better oversight in Corrections. As with anything where money (and people) are involved, it is fraught with fraud. Judges accepting bribes to hand out longer sentences, etc etc. But this is just an example of one type of fraud that happens when you have "people, money, and lack of oversight/transparency". In Cincinnati the local city govt officials were taking bribes from private companies to award contracts. Some were giving inside information via texts and then deleting those texts. (Which is also illegal). That was just in the last few years.

I bring that up to say that although we are talking specifically about Corrections, we also see it in non-privatized parts of our govt. When we see and find it, we should not just hold those people accountable but put in place ways to ensure that it cant happen again. However again with people involved, someone will either think they are smarter than the system, or will find ways around the oversight. Sadly it seems to be human nature.

Some absolutely brilliant points here …

Yes technological advancements could certainly result in more acute results ~ maybe even mind/motivation reading/determining capability.

In fact it would be cool to access memory and replay it to determine what occurred and who did what.

I think especially when privatising systems ~ is it not harder to institutionalise oversight mechanisms.

Here all corrections are government run and managed and maybe it’s more evident what oversight/appeal/complaints processes are in place.

I’m sure something similar exists in the private for-profit sector and I’m sure like financial regulations there is government requirements that those systems are subject to independent body oversight processes.

I just don’t know what they are atm. but those examples of corruption and the known vulnerabilities that exist that can be corrupted are extremely concerning.

Especially the bribing judges to deliver longer/harsher sentences ~ that’s beyond the pale.

I think it’s things like this that stand as an indictment against the system. But that doesn’t mean you have to throw out the baby with the bath water. It’s indicative of the need for review and examination of the system.

From top to bottom and bottom up.

There are known issues and biases which can be addressed in all levels of the system ~ of the law enforcement, judicial and corrections service systems

[Skyweir]

So cuz I known next to nothing of American corrections system/s … a quick google produced this … a very interesting philosophical approach to corrections ~ in particular focussing on prisoner reform methodologies with emphasis on mitigating/reducing incidents of recidivism.

https://www.justice.gov/archives/prison-reform

Some interesting initiatives being floated

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

Catholic Mobilizing Network @CMNEndtheDP | Twitter

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

Florida executes murderer, abuse victim despite appeal from Catholic bishops

This booking photo provided by the Florida Department of Corrections shows Michael Duane Zack III. (Credit: Florida Department of Corrections, via AP)

NEW YORK — In a final statement before his execution Tuesday night, Florida death row inmate Michael Zack III said he made no excuses for the crimes he committed, but said he wished he could have had “a second chance, to live out my days in prison and continue to do all I can to make a difference in this world.”

Zack’s request for a stay of his execution in favor of a life in prison is precisely what the state’s Catholic bishops asked Governor Ron DeSantis to consider last month, to no avail. Zack was executed by lethal injection on Oct. 3 at Florida State Prison, and pronounced dead at 6:14 p.m.

His final words were, “I love you all.”

Zack, 54, killed two Florida women, Laura Rosillo and Ravonne Smith, in 1996. Smith was a bar employee he befriended, whom he later beat and stabbed to death with an oyster knife. Days later, he met Rosillo at a bar in a nearby county, invited her to the beach to do drugs, and eventually beat her to death as well. He was sentenced to death for Smith’s murder and to life in prison for Rosillo’s.

In a Sept. 11 letter to DeSantis on behalf of Florida’s eight bishops, Michael Sheedy, the executive director of the Florida Conference of Catholic Bishops, acknowledged that Zack’s “heinous and horrific crimes against these women have caused untold suffering to their families, friends, and communities,” but argued that intentionally ending his life was “unnecessary.”

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Spoiler

As an alternative punishment, Sheedy called for Zack to spend the rest of his life in prison without the possibility of parole.

“In taking the life of Mr. Zack, the state will do nothing to restore the victims’ lives. Rather, state-sanctioned killing will only further fuel the growing societal disrespect for the dignity of human life,” Sheedy wrote. “The death penalty merely perpetuates the cycles of violence and vengeance that permeate our culture. Intentionally ending Mr. Zack’s life is unnecessary.”

“In our modern penal system, no one should be executed,” Sheedy said.

Bishop Emeritus Felipe Estévez of St. Augustine and other anti-death penalty advocates gathered outside of Florida State Prison for a vigil for Michael Zack. The vigil was led by the Catholic Mobilizing Network, an organization that advocates against the death penalty nationwide.

“We stand in solidarity with all of those throughout the state of Florida who are holding vigils, protesting, and bearing witness to the sanctity of [Michael Zack’s] life,” the organization said in a statement.

[…]

Zack’s execution was the eighth under DeSantis since 2019, and the sixth this year. There were no executions carried out in the state between 2020 and 2022. However, Florida has the second most inmates on death row in the country after California with 291, according to the Florida Department of Corrections.

DeSantis signed Zack’s death warrant on Aug. 17.

“And finally, to Governor DeSantis and the Clemency Board: I love you. I forgive you. I pray for you,” Zack said at the close of his final statement ahead of his execution.

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

Pope: Death Penalty brings no justice, but is "poison" for society

LEFT: Pope Francis. (Credit: ANSA) | RIGHT: Cover of Dale Recinella's book. (Source: Vatican News)

Says Pope in preface to new book, A Christian on Death Row.

ANSA English Desk — The death penalty is "in no way a solution to the violence that can strike innocent people", Pope Francis wrote in the preface released Sunday to A Christian on Death Row: My Commitment to Those Condemned, a new book by Dale Recinella, set for publication by the Vatican Publishing House (LEV) on Tuesday, August 27.

"Capital executions, far from bringing justice, fuel a sense of revenge that becomes a dangerous poison for the body of our civil societies", the pontiff wrote in the preface.

"States should focus on allowing prisoners the opportunity to truly change their lives, rather than investing money and resources in their execution, as if they were human beings no longer worthy of living and to be disposed of", said the pope.

In the book out next Tuesday, Recinella, 72, formerly a successful lawyer on Wall Street, talks about his work since 1998 as a lay chaplain aiding inmates on death row in Florida, an experience he has shared with wife Susan.

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Spoiler

"Jesus is capable of revolutionizing our plans, our aspirations, and our perspectives", the pontiff also wrote in the preface.

"The story of Dale Recinella, whom I met during an audience, and have come to know better through the articles he has written over the years for L'Osservatore Romano and now through this deeply moving book, confirms what I have said: only in this way can we understand how a man, who had other goals in mind for his future, became the chaplain — as a lay Christian, husband, and father — to those condemned to death.

"His is an extremely difficult, risky, and arduous task, because it touches evil in all its dimensions: the evil committed against the victims, which cannot be undone; the evil the condemned person is living through, knowing they are destined for certain death; the evil that, through the practice of the death penalty, is instilled in society."

According to the pontiff, "the Jubilee should commit all believers to collectively call for the abolition of the death penalty, a practice that, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church states, 'is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person!' (CCC 2267)."

In order to support such a thesis, Pope Francis quotes The Idiot in which Fyodor Dostoevsky "succinctly encapsulates the logical and moral unsustainability of the death penalty, speaking of a man condemned to death: "It is a violation of the human soul, nothing more! It is written: 'Thou shalt not kill,' and yet, because he has killed, others kill him.

"No, it is something that should not exist."

[…]

The pope concluded offering "a sincere and heartfelt thank you to Dale Racinella: because his work as a chaplain on death row is a tenacious and passionate adherence to the deepest reality of the Gospel of Jesus".

[sgt.null]

Anyone who kills, especially children forfeits their right to get their life together at their leisure.

[Avatar]

Unless it's governments doing the killing?

--A

[sgt.null]

Avatar - if a dog goes rogue and maims / kills we must lut it down to protect society. It is just the same.

I would expand this to those who rape.

[Holsety]

I still think it was probably OK to kill Saddam Hussein in an execution...I didn't get any emotional mileage out of it until I typed this post though.

Sgt I personally don't think vicious dogs are as difficult a case to defend, though that may have been an offhand statement. Putting aside economic/interest concerns, if people actually want to care for dogs like that in a secure system like we do for people, I think it's a lot easier to keep dogs from escaping or hurting staff caring for them than it is to keep people from escaping or hurting staff trying to keep them doing anything dangerous to the staff or each other. I don't say that because I think dogs are necessarily better, just probably easier to control.

[sgt.null]

Once a dog goes past its programing and maims or kills it need to be destroyed. It is the balance of nature. The same should apply for society.

The kid who just killed in Georgia, the school shooter. I would apply this to him as well. I worked with such for 24 yrs. We should protect society over attempting to redeem the dysfunctional members..

[Holsety]

Once a dog goes past its programing and maims or kills it need to be destroyed. It is the balance of nature. The same should apply for society.

The kid who just killed in Georgia, the school shooter. I would apply this to him as well. I worked with such for 24 yrs. We should protect society over attempting to redeem the dysfunctional members..

Dogs aren't programmed not to maim or kill at all. Even now we sometimes use them to kill. I suspect you mean they shouldn't be killing humans on their own initiative. I think that if people find it rewarding to try and keep a dog that has killed alive and can prove they can do it very safely (which I suspect is quite possible), they should have the freedom to do so.

Death row inmates seem like they are kept pretty safely based on superficial looks on google indicating it's incredibly rare for them to break out, but I didn't find lots of stats on prisoner on guard violence for death row inmates in particular. If prison guards don't want to do the job they're doing and really hate it but can't find another opportunity to work and want to work with inmates who are less likely to be dangerous...well I think plenty of people probably hate their jobs at some point, but I'd admit that I'm more sympathetic to guards who hate their jobs due to the danger than to prisoners who have killed. And off the top of my head I'd be more sympathetic to making prison guards lives easier than I would be to same for many other jobs.

But if prison guards are by and large able to keep themselves safe from inmate attacks in a given prison, and prisoner break out is extremely rare in that prison, personally I would much rather keep the prisoners alive.

As someone who's been sexually violated before (though once only, in quite short duration), I really don't think it's close to murder. However, I realize that if it had repeated it could've been a lot worse. I've never been murdered though?