Is there a God?

[Loredoctor]

I'll try and respond to all that, but one of the reasons I don't post in these topics often is that I'm not very good at expressing my thoughts on this sort of thing... I'm not entirely sure if this really answers what you are saying, but its as close as I can think of other than just saying 'its perfectly possible through chance'.

The first long organic molecules formed in warm, chemically rich spots near the sea beds, where chemicals would form into complex molecules when exposed to heat - apparently the structures make the transference of extra energy from heat (such as in areas of volcanic activity, prime suspects for the location of the first life) more efficient. These structures occured many times, in many combinations, and some work better than others - the ones less effective at transferring energy break down when exposed to too much energy. But, the process meant there were many different combinations of hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, nitrogen, phosphorous, etc, present. Chemical properties of these elements meant they were always going to form in certain patterns, so the odds are good that long chain molecules will occur.
Here I am also going to throw in this: www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993778
Recent evidence suggests that UV light from the sun actually made long chains of RNA more likely to form than other molecules. From there, it is all a chemical equivalent of natural selection. Every possible combination will have occured at some point - similar molecules with slightly different chemical properties. Some won't have lasted, some will have. Evolution takes care of the refinements.
If evolution is accepted as fact, then from the first strands of RNA formed, the complex DNA we have today is perfectly explicable.

Of course, if you return now to the statement about it being chance - that is not strictly true, based on the arguments above. The correct elements in the correct conditions do not have as large a number of possible formations as may be thought. The 'chance' is actually limited by many factors to the point where complex life becomes inevitable, rather than just probable.


Interestingly, this is also an argument for the possible abundance of extra-terrestrial life. In any place with very similar conditions, life is inevitable. Even if it doesn't last for long.

Agreed, Murrin. Well said.

[Baradakas]

Ur-Vile said:

essentially the last thing for neuropsychology to 'explain' is self-awareness, but that doesn't mean a soul.

Funny that. Nowhere in the Bible does it say humans have 'souls'. I believe in Hebrew it's nephesh, or spirit. Until The Day of the Lord, as noted in Apocalypse, when the Lord makes our 'spirits' immortal souls. Yet so many ignorant religious fools claim we have 'souls', and that we go to heaven. Balderdash!!! NO ONE gets to go to heaven!!!!! Read the Bible!!!!

Just wanted something to rant about. Maybe the above statements are a few reasons I dislike Zeph.... he was always ranting about saving our souls for heaven...... Sorry guys, I'll stop before I start sounding like him.

And UV, no offense taken, as I said before, our increasing knowledge lessens faith, and the mysteries of God's glory become puzzles for us to put together, not admire as we should. (This last statement is an opinion, and should not be taken as argumentative fact )

[Loredoctor]

Ur-Vile said:

essentially the last thing for neuropsychology to 'explain' is self-awareness, but that doesn't mean a soul.

Funny that. Nowhere in the Bible does it say humans have 'souls'. I believe in Hebrew it's nephesh, or spirit. Until The Day of the Lord, as noted in Apocalypse, when the Lord makes our 'spirits' immortal souls. Yet so many ignorant religious fools claim we have 'souls', and that we go to heaven. Balderdash!!! NO ONE gets to go to heaven!!!!! Read the Bible!!!!

Thanks for that, B!

[Worm of Despite]

Yes, we do know SO much about our world, yet I challenge anyone to explain the complexity of human thought, or why humans possess emotional range beyond even the most intelligent birds or mammals. Explain the word "yearning" or "love".

Our brains.

And lastly, and (to me) most importantly, careful study of the Old Testament makes many precise predictions of the distant future (see your weekly dissertation for clues) ALL OF WHICH HAVE COME TO PASS!

How precise are we talking here? Something like "And behold, John F. Kennedy will be shot on this day and at the time, etc."? Most predictions are obscure enough to apply to anything.

And UV, no offense taken, as I said before, our increasing knowledge lessens faith, and the mysteries of God's glory become puzzles for us to put together, not admire as we should.

I'm an atheist, and I admire the world. I love nature, love taking walks, etc. Technology helps add to that admiration. It makes life a lot easier, more civilized, less about base kill-or-be-killed survival. I'm nothing but grateful for increasing technology and increasing knowledge. Why wouldn't I be? We'd still be in the caves if we sat around just admiring everything. And there'd be no toilet paper, either. No thanks.

[Fist and Faith]

Regarding knowledge vs faith, my position is that the two need not have any effect on each other. Actually, I think they CAN'T. Science can tell us HOW things work, not why. Faith can tell us why, even if each person's faith only answers the whys for themselves.


But I don't see that faith is the important thing anyway. Some believe that Satan used to be a glorious angel, but rebelled. He certainly knew God, and knew God's plan. It wasn't a matter of faith for him, it was knowledge. Still, he rebelled. To my mind, it would be fine for all of us to know with absolute certainty what the ultimate Truth of it all is. The important part is deciding whether or not to follow that path. There are plenty of religious ideas I would happily follow if I thought they were true. Even some versions of Christianity. But there are plenty that I would not follow, could not follow, even if I knew they were true.

Those with no faith (whether it be in a deity or a philosophical school of thought) lack hope as well. -B

I guess that "philosophical school of thought" is a big enough loophole that I won't argue the point.

[Loredoctor]

Regarding knowledge vs faith, my position is that the two need not have any effect on each other. Actually, I think they CAN'T. Science can tell us HOW things work, not why. Faith can tell us why, even if each person's faith only answers the whys for themselves.

Yes, but do we need a 'why'? In the sort of world that many scientists, like myself, believe they live, there is only cause and effect - causality. Posit this as true. Now, do we need a 'why'? To me, 'how' is all that matters.
Interesting points, FF!

[Fist and Faith]

It's true that you and I don't need a "why," but others do. I'm just saying that they aren't going to get it from science.

And trying to use science to prove that there isn't one is a silly thing to do. If one is already convinced there is no why, then why bother trying to prove it with science? And they sure aren't going to prove there isn't a why to folks like Furls Fire, and I can't imagine why anyone would want to.

Interesting points, FF!

Why thank you!

[Loredoctor]

And trying to use science to prove that there isn't one is a silly thing to do. If one is already convinced there is no why, then why bother trying to prove it with science? And they sure aren't going to prove there isn't a why to folks like Furls Fire, and I can't imagine why anyone would want to.

That's very true. I would hate to think I reach the stage where I will try and prove people wrong here! I look at science as explaining behaviour and the natural world. To me, the debate about the existence of God is not a debate for science to follow. Perhaps Quantum physics can reach that stage, but trying to dismiss the personal beliefes of Christians is folly; it is arrogant, poor taste and ultimately wrong.

[/quote]

[Loredoctor]

Interesting points, FF!

Why thank you!

You are one of most interesting members here - intelligent and thought provoking.

[Furls Fire]

aaaahh.. now I know why my ears were ringing.

I never try to "prove" to anyone the existance of God. This kind of belief just comes from inside a person. You can't drum God into people, tho many organized religions have tried over the centuries, with tragic and horrific consequences. It just can't be done that way. Faith, belief, knowledge of God comes from a person's soul. And a person either chooses to believe or not to believe, or simply to sit on the fence, not going either way.

As for me, I believe with all my heart and soul that there is a God. I feel Him all around me, He is there in everything I do everyday. And, I also believe that He is the guiding hand in science as well. Why must people think that if they adhere to science they must dismiss God? Why must the two be in constant conflict? I'm a firm believer in the wonders of modern science. Especially in medical advances. We can now cure babies of the HIV virus, my own adopted son has just been cured. Do I thank God for this...you bet your ass I do. But, do I also thank the researchers and the scientists that have been working on a cure for AIDS/HIV for the past 25 years?? Again, you bet your ass I do! Do I believe God's Hand is guiding the researchers and the scientists in making these wondrous miracles happen every day... you bet your....well okay...I think I've made my point.

[Worm of Despite]

Why must people think that if they adhere to science they must dismiss God?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it's the other way around most of the time: that people who adhere to God feel they must dismiss science--or rather, certain aspects of it (evolution, primarily). I can't speak for scientists, but, personally, I know that my acceptance of science never once influenced my choice to become an atheist. I made that choice for about a thousand different reasons, not one of them being the Big Bang theory (heh).

But you're right, Furls. Science and religion shouldn't be in conflict. It would make things a lot easier.

I'd just like to state for the record that I don't have any disrespect for religion, nor do I view science as some "evil tool" with which to dissect religion. I don't know anybody who does, personally. If our beliefs about life help us learn to love people, then there's nothing wrong with them. They're all just different means to one great end.

[I'm Murrin]

The only question there is that I am absolutely certain will never be answered is: Why?
The problem with asking 'Why?' is that every explanation leads to another 'Why?', and so on and so forth, and the cycle is unending. I'll give an example.

One very big question is Why does life exist? The scientific answer is, of course:
Life is the result of chemical processes in certain conditions.

It follows that we should then ask: Why do the chemical processes occur this way?
It is the result of the properties of their component particles.

Why do the particles have these properties?

And so on.
The above cycle follows the composition and properties of matter - each part behaves that way because of the parts it is made from, ans they are the result of their constituents, etc, down to the point we've now reached where we finally get an end point, and matter is entirely quantum wave functions. But how do they work?

If I ask Why does the universe exist? You might answer that is was created by another being. What if I then asked, Why does this superior being exist? Is his only purpose to create the universe?
If this universe exists to prepare people for heaven, then why does Heaven exist? How was it created? If it was created by god, what is outside Heaven, the place where He existed before Heaven did? Why does that place/plane exist? How was it created?

It is, of course, an endless cycle of why's.

[Revan]

Faith is illogical, knowledge is logical. I perfer to be logical myself. There is no God. Sure, you'll say; where is the prove that he doesn't exist? I'll answer; It lies in the fact that there is not prove for his existence, for me, that is prove enough.

[Brinn]

It's turtles baby...All the way down.

[Baradakas]

Lord Foul said:

How precise are we talking here? Something like "And behold, John F. Kennedy will be shot on this day and at the time, etc."? Most predictions are obscure enough to apply to anything.

Though it would take a day or so to submit all my findings to you the most compelling piece would have to do with the birthright promises made to Abraham by God. (see your weekly dissertation) By following secular history along with biblical information, one can trace the ten lost tribes of Israel to thier places today, and the places of power they would inherit, down to the last detail, including waterways and lands they would control, as well as religious facts such as how the lost tribes lost thier religious mark, absorbing pagan ideas from other peoples, just as God warned them they would. Again, it would require more time than I have at present to show you the OVERWHELMING evidence of these (secular & biblical) facts, not those that may be applied to any period, but those that can only be applied to direct actions and changes throughout history.

The Book of Daniel is especially persuasive, as it relates to seperate incarnations of the Holy Roman Empire, more than a thousand years before such an institution even existed.

-B

[Fist and Faith]

You are one of most interesting members here - intelligent and thought provoking.

Were you thinking of someone else???? Yikes, thanks!!

aaaahh.. now I know why my ears were ringing.

And a person either chooses to believe or not to believe, or simply to sit on the fence, not going either way.

I'm gonna have to argue this one with you. I didn't choose my beliefs, or the lack thereof. As I told you once in chat, I went to Sunday School as a kid, and was taught this and that. I assumed it was fact, because it was all I had ever heard. Then one day I heard about atheism. At that point, I realized that, although I knew the words and stories, I didn't feel anything. They were just words to me. I can't make the decision to have faith in something that I don't feel in my heart, and can't prove logically or scientifically. What can I do? Though I said science shouldn't be used to try to prove or disprove God's existence, I didn't always know that. I read and read stuff, and only came to the conclusion that I couldn't come to any conclusion. And so agnosticism.

As for me, I believe with all my heart and soul that there is a God. I feel Him all around me, He is there in everything I do everyday.

That's what I mean. You didn't choose to feel Him as you do, and I'll bet you couldn't choose to not feel Him.

you bet your ass I do.

Spank me!!

you bet your....well okay...I think I've made my point.

Yes, but I do so love it when you talk dirty!

Faith is illogical, knowledge is logical. I perfer to be logical myself. There is no God. Sure, you'll say; where is the prove that he doesn't exist? I'll answer; It lies in the fact that there is not prove for his existence, for me, that is prove enough.

Why I oughta... I thought you were talking about logic. Not being able to prove something's existence is not the same as proving it's non-existence.

It's turtles baby...All the way down.

I love it!!

[Revan]

Faith is illogical, knowledge is logical. I perfer to be logical myself. There is no God. Sure, you'll say; where is the prove that he doesn't exist? I'll answer; It lies in the fact that there is not prove for his existence, for me, that is prove enough.

Why I oughta... I thought you were talking about logic. Not being able to prove something's existence is not the same as proving it's non-existence.

I think it is. Otherwise, I could believe they're such things as dragons... or fairy's. They have about as much prove in their existence than God does.

[Furls Fire]

Sigh, oh Darth. What "proof" do you need? Would you believe God if He actually stood before you and proclaimed who He is? This actually happened 2000 years ago. Was He believed? By a few, yes. But, not by most...

Miracles happen every day. Everyday. All one has to do is open their eyes and hearts and they are revealed. My brother was a miracle. My brother talked to Jesus. My brother glowed with the radiance of heaven from the time he took his first breath until the time he took his last. You could see God working thru him. Souls were drawn to him like bees are drawn to honey. Strangers, people he never met before would walk up to him and call him by name. And it's still happening. Look at Isaiah. Even from the other side of Jordan he's drawing souls.

Faith is illogical? Then I must be one of the most illogical people in this world. But, all I have to do is look at my kids and my husband, look at the beauty of the earth around me, look at the sky, and most of all, remember my brother, and my faith is confirmed. God is the leader of my life's path...and what a glorious path it is...

"Proof" my sweet Darth, is in the eyes of the beholder.

And Fist, maybe "choose" was the wrong word. It's hard for me sometimes to understand what it's like for people who do not feel what I do in my heart. Since I was literally born with the Lord in it. I wasn't "taught" to believe in God. It's just always been there, if that makes sense. It probably doesn't. This is why I usually avoid these discussions...Because belief or nonbelief or "I just don't know" is sooooooooooooooooo personal and private. I feel it's wrong of me to try and sway people to my way of believing. Faith can't be taught, or drummed in. You either have it, or you don't. But, for those who are seeking it, the only place to find it, is in the inner soul.

[Revan]

Sigh, oh Darth. What "proof" do you need? Would you believe God if He actually stood before you and proclaimed who He is? This actually happened 2000 years ago. Was He believed? By a few, yes. But, not by most...

Miracles happen every day. Everyday. All one has to do is open their eyes and hearts and they are revealed. My brother was a miracle. My brother talked to Jesus. My brother glowed with the radiance of heaven from the time he took his first breath until the time he took his last. You could see God working thru him. Souls were drawn to him like bees are drawn to honey. Strangers, people he never met before would walk up to him and call him by name. And it's still happening. Look at Isaiah. Even from the other side of Jordan he's drawing souls.

Faith is illogical? Then I must be one of the most illogical people in this world. But, all I have to do is look at my kids and my husband, look at the beauty of the earth around me, look at the sky, and most of all, remember my brother, and my faith is confirmed. God is the leader of my life's path...and what a glorious path it is...

"Proof" my sweet Darth, is in the eyes of the beholder.

And Fist, maybe "choose" was the wrong word. It's hard for me sometimes to understand what it's like for people who do not feel what I do in my heart. Since I was literally born with the Lord in it. I wasn't "taught" to believe in God. It's just always been there, if that makes sense. It probably doesn't. This is why I usually avoid these discussions...Because belief or nonbelief or "I just don't know" is sooooooooooooooooo personal and private. I feel it's wrong of me to try and sway people to my way of believing. Faith can't be taught, or drummed in. You either have it, or you don't. But, for those who are seeking it, the only place to find it, is in the inner soul.

I used to believe in God Furls... used to think he was looking down on me always (Like all kids do). Then things happened in my life that pretty much strangled and shattered that belief right out of me. I do not wish to argue with you Furls... Cause I like you a lot... and have no wish to fall out with you so please take no offense that I'm going to disagree with you:

"Look at the beauty of the earth around me." Sorry... but I don't see much of this. I see it in the people I live. But the rest of it? No, there is very little beauty in this world imo. You here about Murder, rape, thiefs, so the list could go on and on about the awful aspects of this world. (And I know there is much beauty, but the woes of it match the beauty) But most humans on this earth are compelled by greed, selfish imo. *sigh*

[Furls Fire]

And you believe that because these things happen that God doesn't exist? Yes, there are terrible things happening in the world, there have always been terrible things happening in the world. This is why Jesus came to us 2 millenia ago. This is why beautiful people have walked the earth ever since.

Darth, I don't want to preach to you, I'm not good at it. But I will say this... God isn't going to make our pain go away, He isn't going to reach down and wipe away all our troubles. Yet, He does send us those who I call "The Great Ones". The ones who, in spite all of the HELL that swarms the earth, walk it with heads held high and strive to do His work. The list is long, but I'll just keep it to those people who have been around for the past 200 years or so...

Abraham Lincoln
Ghandi
Nelson Mandela
The Dahli Lama
Mother Teresa (God bless Mother)
Martin Luther King Jr
Harriette Tubman
Medger Evers
Maya Angelou
John Lennon
Anwer Sadat

There's more, so many more, most nameless people just doing what they can to help those in need. All those who devote time to the homeless, the abused, the sick. We hear about the terrorists, the murderers, the rapists, the child abusers. But, we hardly hear about the man who carries another on his back to the hospital. Or the woman who gives her savings to the homeless shelter she volunteers at. Or the child who goes to the nursing home to visit a lonely old man whose family has abandoned him and calls him "grandpa" just to see him smile... These are the people God sends. These are the ones who are the beauty of the world Darth.

And as long as they are, Satan will never have his way.

well, that's enough.