Is there a God?

[Revan]

Well... The person I've turned into (Maybe not a very good one ) needs prove now... I can't believe in something that isn't there Furls, I'm sorry, I just can't.

[Furls Fire]

okay Darth

God bless you

[Revan]

okay Darth

God bless you

You too Furls, you too.



btw Furls... there is a small part of me that wants to have that faith... or even has is.... but it's in the manority I'm afraid.

[Fist and Faith]

I think it is. Otherwise, I could believe they're such things as dragons... or fairy's. They have about as much prove in their existence than God does.

Depends on the thing in question. Fairy's are much the same situation, and I'll bet some DO believe in them, just as some believe in angels. But dragons are "supposed" to be in certain places at certain times, and are always apparent to our senses. If you say a dragon lives in a certain cave near a volcano, and you go there and it's not there, no sign of it, doesn't return no matter how long you wait, I'll join you in the belief that there is no such dragon.

Faith is illogical? Then I must be one of the most illogical people in this world.

I didn't want to say anything. (And if I thought you would take that joke seriously for one instant, I wouldn't have made it.) My position, as I've told you in chat, is that, even if you're completely wrong, there's no reason to think you're crazy or illogical or anything. Whether there is any God or not, it is obvious that different people have different psychological needs and desires. We each view life through the lens of our own psyche, and see our own Pattern (heh ). Even Christians do this when compared to each other, as can be seen when comparing the Baptists dancing and singing their joy to God, the monk in silent meditation, and yourself.

And Fist, maybe "choose" was the wrong word. It's hard for me sometimes to understand what it's like for people who do not feel what I do in my heart. Since I was literally born with the Lord in it. I wasn't "taught" to believe in God. It's just always been there, if that makes sense. It probably doesn't.

Of course it does.

This is why I usually avoid these discussions...Because belief or nonbelief or "I just don't know" is sooooooooooooooooo personal and private. I feel it's wrong of me to try and sway people to my way of believing. Faith can't be taught, or drummed in. You either have it, or you don't. But, for those who are seeking it, the only place to find it, is in the inner soul.

I'd be surprised if you were capable of speaking in the way you feel is wrong. As I told Durris recently after reading an article she wrote, you speak your heart, and people either listen or not. Speaking your heart is the best anyone can do, and nobody's heart is more beautiful than yours. You keep doing what you're doing, which is only telling us of your joy.


As for the beauty vs. woes question, Darth, I agree with what you see, but not with your conclusion. If Furls' God does, indeed, exist, than He gave us the greatest gift of all - free will. I wouldn't trade that for paradise, if we could possibly define the word. What could possibly be better than deciding who and what we'll be for ourselves? Nothing I can think of. Unfortunately, it comes with a downside. But that downside, imo, is not as bad as being slaves or robots. As they say, freedom isn't free.

we hardly hear about the man who carries another on his back to the hospital. Or the woman who gives her savings to the homeless shelter she volunteers at. Or the child who goes to the nursing home to visit a lonely old man whose family has abandoned him and calls him "grandpa" just to see him smile... These are the people God sends. These are the ones who are the beauty of the world Darth.

Amen!

[Furls Fire]

Thank you Eric. Hugglesssssssssssssssss

Darth, you said this...

btw Furls... there is a small part of me that wants to have that faith... or even has is.... but it's in the manority I'm afraid.

Seems to me, you are not as "unbelieving" as you claim. Time for you to just sink down inside your soul, grab hold of that dorment faith, and just let it rise. Make that proverbial leap...if it's there, it won't let you fall.

Go read Stephen...he'll help you find it inside yourself

[Fire Daughter]

If there is one thing I've learned from my parents and my Uncle it is this. God is Love. Love is God. Why else would Jesus sacrifice Himself for us? Love. And like my mother always says...Love is so easy to give.

Is there a God? Oh yes. My Uncle talked to Him all the time. And He talked to my Uncle.

[Revan]

Thank you Eric. Hugglesssssssssssssssss

Darth, you said this...

btw Furls... there is a small part of me that wants to have that faith... or even has is.... but it's in the manority I'm afraid.

Seems to me, you are not as "unbelieving" as you claim. Time for you to just sink down inside your soul, grab hold of that dorment faith, and just let it rise. Make that proverbial leap...if it's there, it won't let you fall.

Go read Stephen...he'll help you find it inside yourself

hmm... there is disbelief and belief there... But I don't believe at all in this alrighty and righteous God... rather... I believe there is something higher out there... But I don't believe in any pure being.

[Skyweir]

Love is an intriguing concept! You cannot see love .. it may even be illogical to believe in love without proof of its existence. Love is intangible. There is rarely proof of the existence of love and yet its presence can be felt .. and through actions it is demonstrated.

love is not passive .. love cannot be pure and at the same time false or feigned. Actions initiated by love demonstrate the kind of love and purity possessed.

It is often purported that God is love. It is said that if we can feel love we can feel God!

Those who believe in the assertion that God is love .. must truly act accordingly with that belief.

As such those believers steer their lives to avoid harming others, they steer their beliefs in the ways of peace .. but more importantly they must inevitably steer their actions to live true and be true to those beliefs.

Be it christian, muslim, hindi or even buddhist (who do not believe in God per se) their actions are inevitably governed by the tenets of their faith.

to honour, respect, honestness .. on a quest to be true to themselves and all those they coexist with.

No one is perfect .. but those with faith quest for a better self .. a higher self .. some more than others. But true believers .. are identified in their actions. Our actions state and confirm our true beliefs.

It is healthy to strive to better oneself .. imo .. it is healthy to care for each other .. it is healthy for us and it is healthy for our society and even for the world we inhabit.

Logical?? what is logic? who can say what is illogical? are any of us free from illogical actions and thoughts? are any of us absolutely logical in all our actions and thoughts?

Logical or illogical are judgements made by subjective observers .. or observers divorced from humanity! Love is not always logical .. When we sacrifice our lives for another .. there is no logic in such actions .. but there is love!

When a parent bears and raises a child and puts that life first to ensure its survival beyond their own .. that can be argued as illogical .. and yet we see examples of this happening all through counteless generations.

[variol son]

At the moment I am on a quest to re-discover who God is.

When I was regularly attending a church, my whole life was expected to revolve around that group of people. It was expected that because I belonged to that church that my political beliefs, my taste in music, the type of people I befriended, my family values, which books I read, and even the style of clothes I wore would be the same as the other members. The sad thing is that for many years it was. I destroyed the copy of The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever that my father bought me one year for Christmas because it was evil. I stopped hanging out with some of my best friends because they were a bad influence. I destroyed countless ungodly CD's. I even pretended to have the same thoughts as my fellow parishoners on war, education, economics, sex, health care and welfare. In short, I lost who I was.

Now that I am no longer a church-goer, I have found that not only do I need to re-discover myself, but I need to find out who God really is as well. This is only made harder by the fact that, according to the huge majority of the world's religions and spiritual beliefs, I am an anomoly. An abomination. God apparently thinks I am wrong and sick and evil.

The thing is, no matter how many times I hear that, I always think to myself that God is love. So I am on a journey, to find out who God really is, what He/She is really like, and what He/She really thinks of me.

I would encourage you Darth, to do the same. Forget about organizations for now. Don't worry about churches or groups. Disregard the limitations that people try to put on God and His/Her love. Instead, find a place where you can be alone, and practice knowing who you really are. That's something that I have started doing, and I suspect it may be one of the many ways to actually find out something about God.

With love.

Sum sui generis
Vs

[Fist and Faith]

This is only made harder by the fact that, according to the huge majority of the world's religions and spiritual beliefs, I am an anomoly. An abomination. God apparently thinks I am wrong and sick and evil.

If there actually is a God, and God does hold this opinion of you, than you're better off without God. As are we all. Just my opinion, and I know others disagree. But if this is God's way, I don't care what they or God think. If God isn't about unconditional love, then I don't want any part of it.

And here's something that's not specifically about love. There's a fantasy book, The Kundalini Equation, by Steven Barnes, where one character is doing a lot of searching, questioning, etc, about life, God, etc. During an appearance, a woman in the audience asked, "Mr. Patanjal, how does it feel to know that you are going to burn in hell?" And he answered:

"Madame, the divine force which you believe in and the one in which I believe are obviously two different beings. If in a sincere quest for understanding and knowledge I have erred, I am deeply sorry, and await a sign from the Almighty that will teach me the error of my ways. I simply believe in the virtues of sincere intellectual curiosity. An eagerness to use the mind and feelings that God himself gave me to inquire into mysteries rather than merely accept the explanation othat other men have passed down through the years. If for this I will be cast into fires everlasting, then God is indeed the malign thug of which Mark Twain wrote, and his hell could certainly be no more insufferable than his heaven."

As for your search, you, of course, know at least one person here who here can help you. But even without her, you're doing fine.

[Baradakas]

Zeph said:

As far as you mind outliving your brain; that's kind of missing the point don't you think? Can't you even say "soul"?

It is a shape of our uniqueness which we will continue on with because we were created to be immortal, to live in heaven.

Are we reading the same Bible? The term soul is essentially correct, but only AFTER the rapture, before that even Jesus stated that we have 'spirits' (from the greek 'nephesh') THAT CAN DIE.

Next, read your Bible very carefully. Where, ANYWHERE in the Bible does it say we go to live in heaven? NOWHERE!!! It states that a New Jerusalem would drop down from Heaven and God would live on earth with us, with Jesus as our King. Only Elias and Moses ever went to Heaven, so that Jesus could learn from them on the Mount.

So many people claim to be "christians" or "catholics" but have NEVER READ THE BIBLE!!! This is my biggest pet peeve, and those people who claim the above stated status really irk me.

Sorry, just needed to vent.... again.



To Furls, Fire Daughter, Fist and VS, your positive messages help inspire love and understanding at the Watch. Thank you.

Oh, and you too Darth!

I would also like to add that those of a belief structure differing from mine, or those who do not believe in God, that I would never judge or challenge your beliefs, unless you wanted a deep, intuitive discussion of ideas, but I would never flame you, degrade you or try to hurt you.

Hmmmm, sounds so..... dare I say, Christian?

-B

[Dragonlily]

God is love? I want to reverse that. To me, love is a outpouring of the Spirit, toward other people, other living things, or non-living things, whether tangible or intangible, in this plane or any other.

Love is what ties us all together. That's pretty important, because God is not a separate and discrete being, God is everything, all of us.

[Revan]

Love is what ties us all together. That's pretty important, because God is not a separate and discrete being, God is everything, all of us.

Then why doesn't he show himself. As he does so often in the bible.

[Furls Fire]

Now that I am no longer a church-goer, I have found that not only do I need to re-discover myself, but I need to find out who God really is as well. This is only made harder by the fact that, according to the huge majority of the world's religions and spiritual beliefs, I am an anomoly. An abomination. God apparently thinks I am wrong and sick and evil.

Luke, YOU are NOT an abomination, you are not sick, and you are most certainly NOT evil. Far from it. What you are is a beautiful, sweet person. Damnation isn't what is in store for you. God wouldn't condemn you to hell for being what He made you. I told Isaiah this very same thing. I don't believe and never will believe that his soul now burns in torment because of who he was by nature. What the Bible says about homosexuality, and how that passage is intrepreted are two completely different things. Love, Luke, love is what God is. If you find love in a person, whether male or female, and you are loved back...how can that be wrong? When God is all about love? Isaiah felt eternally damned because that is what his parents and their so called church MADE him believe. Fire and Brimstone, Sin and Hate, Punishment and Repentance. He was never taught about LOVE!! He was never shown LOVE. He was an abomination against God. Please. That sweet, dear man lived more by God's teachings than any of those fire and brimstone fanatics that drove him away when he was just a kid.

Luke, you are amazing. And I hope your journey into your soul helps you find again the light of the lord. You will find Him and yourself, you are not lost.

[danlo]

Luke you need to seperate the good teachings from the inserted political agenda in the Bible. The Bible isn't the literal word of God-perhaps most of the original version was thought-or intended to be, at the time, but it was written by man and has been compromised over time. Some examples are the political agenda of the Dueteronomists and the social strictures of the Torah. I have a problem taking the Bible at face value-but like life-you need to mine the precious good out of the vast morass. The precious good is in that book(s) as well.

I don't believe in organised religion or the biblical concept of Hell. Of course hell can easily be created by man on Earth; war, violence, abuse and social ostrasizing being the main examples. But Hell can also be a state of mind if you allow it to be. Look how society treated Covenant! Look at how he exorsized his state of mind and found peace. Many times the "majority" is a heartless, apathetic, mindless slug. Don't let it get to you-you're better than that! If there is a God (and I believe there is) he/she/it is a loving architect that holds this wonderful, fleeting, reality together.

You can't convince me that God isn't love. Abundant, unrequited love, more love than we can ever imagine. You deserve your share and all of our shares "runneth over". When society raises it's ignorant head, raise your head higher-you are the most important person!

(Darth the simple fact that I am allowed to continue to breathe and am granted another precious day of learning and loving in this wonderful, fleeting reality tells me I don't, necessarily, need to see God-I'm experiencing "God", and vice versa...)

[Fist and Faith]

This started out as a fairly big excerpt from Jack the Bodiless, by Julian May. But then I figured I’d explain why I make such posts, and the explanation turned out to be pretty big in itself, so I’ll do the excerpt later. I’ve posted parts of this at various times and places, but now it’s all grouped into one post that tells a lot of what I think.

It seems to me that, regardless of the question of whether or not there actually is a God, humanity in general, and most individuals, need to believe in one. (Or more.) For the moment, I’m not concerned with whether this is because there is a Voice that speaks within us all, or it’s Jung’s archetypes (which could have been put there by God for this very purpose ), or whatever. All I know is that we need to try to make peace with what’s inside us.

Some people here have said that they want to believe, but aren’t comfortable with the God they’ve been told exists. Isaiah said it soon after he began reading Stephen McKinney’s journal. variol son says it now. Darth even says it, if not as strongly. But even though some people don’t like the God they’ve been taught about, there is often still a need to believe. The resulting confusion can cause, at best, great personal sorrow. As can be seen in the case of vs who, ridiculously, astonishingly, and in all other ways inconceivably, has been told that he is sick and evil. How much of him ever believed such a lie??? How much of him still worries that it may be true???

The problem is that it’s SOOO DIFFICULT to throw away what we learned in childhood. Even when we want to throw it away, it’s difficult. Our minds hold tightly to the things they learn first. (Which is why we worry about first impressions.) But if we hear many people giving many opposing views, I think we can unlearn many things. Maybe it will become a natural idea that there are many different views of God that are legitimate, and true.

One question is; who the heck am I to say which views should be unlearned? Why is my opinion better than the one you were brought up on? Objectively speaking, I suppose it’s not. I could argue the point, but, in the end, it’s just the way I think we should live. That way is, of course, Love. I say it’s better than fear, hate, intolerance, and discrimination. Love is the answer. Argue with me if you want, but I won’t change my view.

And so, I post things about a loving God, and I tell everyone to read things like the Stephen McKinney thread. I would like it, and I think it’s in everyone’s best interest, if those who do believe in a God believe in one that is, more than anything, loving; a God who acts out of love. If people are going to try to live by the principles of their God, I’d like those principles to be love, tolerance, acceptance, etc. There are many views of God that, even if they don’t agree in every detail, say He is Love. (I’d also like it if those who, like me, do NOT believe in any God find wisdom in these things.)

Another question is; how can different versions of God all be right and true? A guy I used to email with said this:

What I am committed to is taking the Bible seriously. Not as a basic text on physical science, biology or even history, but as the faithful attempt by many authors to tell the story of God's relationship to people. It tells me a great deal about who God is, and in the process I learn about who I am as well.

In the introduction to his translation of the Upanishads, Eknath Easwaran says:

The Upanishads are not systematic philosophy; they are more like ecstatic slide shows of mystical experience - vivid, disjointed, stamped with the power of direct personal encounter with the divine. If they seem to embrace contradictions, that is because they do not try to smooth over the seams of these experiences. They simply set down what the rishis saw, viewing the ultimate reality from different levels of spiritual awareness, like snapshots of the same object from different angles: now seeing God as utterly transcendent, for example, now seeing God as immanent as well. These differences are not important, and the Upanishads agree on their central ideas: ...

The combination of our overall cultures, our individual upbringings, and whatever part of our personalities that are determined by our brains’ hardwiring, make every single one of us unique. Even identical twins who are raised in the same home have differences. Is it remotely possible that we would all have the same idea of what God is? No. We approach the question in different ways, and we arrive at different answers. So, to take examples that I used a couple posts back, which is best: the Baptist who dances and loudly sings praises to God; the monk meditating in silence; or Furls Fire? Of course, the answer is none is best. They all practice their faith in the way best suited to who they are. And so we expect the differences from one religion to another, and even the differences within any religion. The different books of the Bible, and the different Upanishads, were written by people who began from different places. Physically and psychologically. The person who thought that something like Hell actually exists was making an honest and serious attempt to understand his place in life, and God. He may have found great beauty and wisdom, and it would be unfortunate, as well as arrogant, for me to miss those things just because I personally find the concept of Hell to be so ludicrous that it’s not even worth seriously considering.

So the final question is: how can anyone possibly figure out what to believe from among the hundreds that we have likely heard about, and millions that are out there? For this, I’ll just point you to the thread I started at the Hangar about this very thing: p210.ezboard.com/fahirashangarfrm18.showMessage?topicID=27.topic

So for those I described in the beginning, for those who are searching, the answer is inside you. Find it and hold onto it! And I hope it’s love.

[Fist and Faith]

And here's the excerpt from Jack the Bodiless that got me going in the previous post. This is a conversation between a mother and son. I've removed a couple sentences and several individual words to avoid spoilers, and because some of it didn't have anything to do with this topic. I love this conversation. It reflects some of my values, and puts God in what I think is a very good light.

Jon Paul Kendall Remillard had philosophical difficulties with the concept of Christmas. That the scraggly little evergreen tree his mother was trimming was a midwinter hope symbol was easy enough to understand from the explanations and mental images Teresa offered. But the notion of God creating a body for himself to wear – and even Creation itself – bothered Jack.

“It seems a very strange and unnecessary thing for God to do. To become human so that we’d love him rather than fear him. If he’s truly a Supreme Being then it follows that he has no need of any other entity to ensure his own happiness. Especially entities that are so imperfect by their very nature that they will inevitably befoul an otherwise orderly creation. I can understand God creating the physical universe for fun. But why create other minds when you know they’re going to mess things up?”

“I believe famous human thinkers have debated those point. I seem to remember that the theologians of early times were quite positive that God had no absolute need to create other thinking persons,” Teresa said. “This is perfectly ridiculous, of course, since the theologians were willing to concede that he had done it and must have had a good reason. Now, unless we’re ready to admit that a Supreme Being can be capricious or wishy-washy, it follows that he needed to do it. He did need us.”

“But what prompted God’s need of us?”

“Love,” said Teresa.

“That’s irrational.”

“Exactly. I don’t believe anyone has ever reasoned out a satisfactory answer to God’s need of us. Those religions outside the Judeo-Christian tradition rarely hit upon the notion of a loving God at all. As for natural philosophy, loving-kindness would not be an attribute that one would logically deduce that a Big-Bang-Creator-God would have.”

“Hardly.”

“But love is the only motive that seems to make any sense. Without it, you have the Creator-God as a game player trying to assuage his cosmic boredom, caring about us only as game pieces. That is to say, not caring very much! Now, if God wanted us to know that he created us out of love, he’d have to tell us, since we couldn’t figure it out for ourselves. He’d have to get directly involved with us, rather than let us tick along obliviously the way the evolving non-sapient universe does.”

“I suppose so…”

“There are any number of ways he might have done this. But put yourself in God’s position and try to decide the most elegant way to get involved with your thinking creatures. The way that is at once most difficult and unlikely but has the potentiality to succeed in the most magnificent manner imaginable.”

“Not the easiest way?”

“Hevens, no! What would be the satisfaction in that? I can sing ‘Happy Birthday to You,’ but I get more satisfaction doing the mad scene from Lucia, even if it tires me out terribly.”

“I understand.”

“God’s most elegant way of involving himself with us would have to be a scandal to the stodgy-minded and a delight to minds that have a sense of humor and of adventure. As his mind does.”

“God can laugh?”

“Of course, dear, and feel sorrowful, too. A Supreme Being without those attributes wouldn’t be supreme. Grim and joyless people try to pretend otherwise, but their arguments are unpersuasive.”

“Explain to me how God became directly involved with us.”

“It has happened differently on different worlds in the Galaxy. On ours, I believe that the primary involvement happened through the Jewish people and the Christians. It’s a long story, and you’ll really have to read it in the Bible. That book is a fascinating account of human moral evolution, with historical and deeply mythic truth all mingled in a wonderful mishmash. It’s a literary treasure as well as the word of God, and some parts of it are profound, and some are fascinating and some are poetic, and some are even a bore, and parts of Saint Paul make me want to scream. I’m sorry that I haven’t read the whole thing myself. Different religions interpret the Bible in different ways, but we Catholics believe that when the mentalities of one single key tribe of extremely intelligent people were finally mature enough to grasp the concept of a loving God, God simply spoke to them.” She laughed. “Well – perhaps not simply.”

“And the tribe accepted his messages and passed them on?”

“Some members did. Others kept slipping and sliding back into primitive notions of angry gods that constantly needed to be appeased with blood sacrifices and other rubbish. God had to keep coaxing them and smacking them down the way a loving mother has to do when her children are naughty, and – well, you must read the Bible and discuss it with people who know more about it than I do. Your Mama is a very poorly educated person, especially in religious studies. I’m probably explaining this all wrong.”

“Is love the motivation for all creation, then?”

“I imagine so. Mental lattices within our normal Reality can’t exist without the other five kinds, and vice versa. If God wanted to make minds to love, he had to make the whole cosmos. And it is quite lovely, most of it.”

“But to create for the love of it seems so odd!”

“Of course it does. It really makes no sense – in a rational view of the universe. And yet every artist knows the truth of it. And every healthy adult human knows that people who are in love want the whole world to be as happy as they are. If you are God, loving yourself or even being Love in some mysterious fashion, and there aren’t any other minds to share happiness with – then you make some.”

“So one may conclude that God does need us?”

“Most of our coreligionists today believe it’s true.”

“And the problem of the created minds being imperfect? And sometimes evil?”

“I think that has something to do with advanced chaos theory, which I’ve never been able to make head or tail of. You must ask your big brother Marc to explain it. There’s also some principle to the effect that it is much more glorious to make something wonderful out of imperfect parts. The very imperfection of the individual elements – even when there’s actual evil involved, as there often is in human affairs – challenges God to greater creative heights.”

“What a strange idea.”

“There’s an old proverb that says: ‘God writes straight with crooked lines.’ Human history is just full of crooks and twists and twines. One would think anarchy or barbarism or the lowest common denominator would have triumphed ages ago. But is hasn’t. All the messes and atrocities and disasters have somehow been woven into a construct that looks better and better every year – at the same time that some things look even worse! The world is a wonderland compared to the world that existed only forty years or so in the past. That’s because most people have easier lives in the Galactic Milieu than they did before the Great Intervention. But even so, there are still persons who are discontented or who are villains, and situations that are evil or tragic. Nevertheless we children of God continue to evolve and improve on every level, almost in spite of ourselves. That also has something to do with nonlinearity and chaos. And God’s love, too.”

[Furls Fire]

You know, my friend, for someone who says he doesn't believe in God, you sure understand more about said belief than alot of those who profess too.

And whether you believe or not, I'm still going to say this...

God Bless You, Eric.

[Fist and Faith]

You know, my friend, for someone who says he doesn't believe in God, you sure understand more about said belief than alot of those who profess too.

heh Well, I've put a lot of thought into these matters over the last few decades.

And whether you believe or not, I'm still going to say this...

God Bless You, Eric.

And knowing what that means to you, I truly thank you.