can we tell the truth

[GREEK TRAGEDY]

If given a choice, which would you pick Foul?

[Worm of Despite]

I've been given a choice all my life: to believe if God is real or not. Every time I've chosen not to. Why shouldn't I? If there is a God that sends people to hell or eternal death for not worshiping him, then he's going to get me anyway, even if I am good, because he sounds like one mean bugger! I wouldn't want to spend eternity in "Heaven" with a God like that, anyway.

[[Syl]]

Who are we to judge God? Sorry, I'm not so humble. I have never killed someone to prove a point, much less destroyed cities. And yes, I may have committed smaller transgressions, but even I, a lowly mortal, knew them to be wrong. Were I omnipotent and omniscient, I'd like to think it wouldn't have been so hard to, say, not steal that stick of gum when I was 8. I will judge God by the same criteria with which I judge myself. Are my standards greater than a god's?

I may have only met my dad twice in my life, but compared to God, he was clingy. God's worse than an absentee father. He loads the dice then expects you to win a game to which you don't even know the rules (learning the rules appears to be the hardest part of the game, for apparently, there are hundreds of sets of rules, but you have to somehow decide which one is the right one), and worse yet, if you lose, you suffer horrendously. If we're not working against ourselves, we're working against an evil demigod bent on universal destruction capable of insidiously corrupting our inner selves and appearing in different forms.

Would you put your kid through this without even letting him live at home for the first few years of their lives. Seriously, even if we're good, we're not allowed to step foot inside His house until the world ends (and if you don't believe this, or say if you believe in ghosts or such, the bible can't be more than a vague guideline to you). And if you look at some of the beliefs of the Puritans, for one example, even then you still have to hope for a winning ticket, because there's only a limited number of seats!

This is why I can't believe in God (big G, Jehova, what have you).

[FizbansTalking_Hat]

I'm not always that great with words when it comes to politics, and religion, and as such I sometimes like to dig through old quotes, as sometimes other people can say the things I wish to say, but a little bit more eloquently. Cheers.

I believe in God like I believe in the sun, not because I can see it, but because of it all things are seen.

[Fist and Faith]

Well, this is, as we all know, a very personal thing. People believe because of personal experience, whether that experience is a vision of some sort, or just the unshakable feeling of God's presence.

And people like me do NOT believe for the same reason: personal experience. I have none, so I don't believe.

I don't say "No way," because I don't have any personal experience that rules out the possibility. Nor have I heard of any evidence or logic that rules it out. As for Darth's "logic" ... Well, just don't try to make a career in math or science. I'm afraid you can't get too far with that kind of reasoning. That's up there with saying that, since all cows have four legs, all things with four legs are cows.

[Nathan]

1. He foresaw that both Adam and Satan would betray him. This was part of the Divine Plan, which was enacted before mankind ever came into being.

What kind of plan involves creating things designed to betray yourself? A stupid plan if you ask me, what is at the end of this plan? A perfect world? He could have just created one in the first place.

3. Ahh, Ba' laam. This caused me a problem or two as well, until I realized that the Spirit of the Lord (not the supposed Trinity spirit, but the Spirit of the Lord Himself), HAS to intervene in certain occurrences for His Will to be worked, and his Plan to come to fruition.

If he takes away free will on certain occasions, what's to stop him taking it away whenever he feels like, at a whim, as I said. The doctrine of Free Will states that everyone has total free will to do whatever they want. If he breaks the rules once, he'll break them again.

He kills people? You mean more people than we (humans) have managed to slaughter over the last six thousand years or so?

As you say, everything is part of his plan. He planned for us to kill all the people we killed, so it's not our fault.

Sorry if I'm being very cynical and anti-christian, I'm not doing it in to shake anyone's faith (I wouldn't want to, I know how happy my dad is being a Jehovah's witness, and presumably faith like this brings happiness to all who have it), I just wanted to give my reasons, and in order to prove to myself that my reasons are sound I have to defend them, if only to keep myself from feeling as though I'm just not believing because I don't want to (as my dad has accused me of doing).
I don't know whether God exists or not, and I don't much care, it wouldn't change the fact that I'm not going to worship him, his existence isn't as important to me as his actions. His divine plan seems to have caused little but pain and disorder, and I'm not going to worship anyone who creates a world then forces it to destroy itself to prove that he is the only person able to govern a world that doesn't destroy itself.
That's his point isn't it? Man can't rule himself, he'll only make a mess of it? Well, it seems to me that since everything occurs according to his divine plan that it's God who is ruling man. I'm repeating myself now, so I'll end my rant here. I'll also apologise again for anyone this may offend, I don't mean to offend, I just feel strongly about this.

[CovenantJr]

...to keep myself from feeling as though I'm just not believing because I don't want to (as my dad has accused me of doing).

Sounds like a valid reason to me.

[Revan]

Ah, but there is Darth. It's all around you. My brother alone was "proof", (if that is the right word to use), that there is a God. Stephen talked to Him all the time. Jesus Christ is "proof" of God, Stephen talked to Him as well, (of course they are One in the same.) And, I talk to Him as well, and He always answers.

Futhermore, I resent this statement.. "No matter how much you prove to them that "G"od doesn't exist, they never accept it. " You have proven nothing to me, except for the fact that you, yourself, do not believe He exists. Which I respect, and I would never try to "prove" to you that He does exist. I can't do that, and frankly, I see no reason too. But, Darth, and you know I love you, don't go around trying to "prove" to me that He does not.

It's quite simple really. No one could ever sway me from my faith. I watched my brother live in God's Light from the time he was born, to the time he passed on. No one can tell me God does not exist, no one. He's here right now, I feel His Hand on my shoulder as I'm typing this. The walls of my house swell with His presence.

If it's "proof" you want, just open your heart and let Him in.

Would you believe Him if He came to you and said. "Hello, I'm God and My Light shines upon you." Would that be "proof" to you? Darth, He can't talk to you if you choose not to hear Him. Because I hear Him all the time, it's not always clear, but He points me to where I must go.

Anyway, I'm preaching, sermonizing...things I try not to do. I respect that you do not believe in God, Darth. But, please, don't try to "prove" He doesn't exist just because you believe He doesn't. Because, my love, you will fail to "prove" anything.

I wrote quite along reply to this on Friday... but the Watch went "Critical on me".

He's here right now, I feel His Hand on my shoulder as I'm typing this. The walls of my house swell with His presence.

I'm sorry, but that's just your opinion... not fact... Show me the hand of God, let me appear before me... then I'll believe...

Would you believe Him if He came to you and said. "Hello, I'm God and My Light shines upon you." Would that be "proof" to you?

Yes it would, very much so.

But, please, don't try to "prove" He doesn't exist just because you believe He doesn't. Because, my love, you will fail to "prove" anything.

The exact same goes for me in you trying to prove in his existence to me... I can say in the same confidence that you will not "prove" anything.

In fear of falling out with you Furls. I resign the rest of what I was going to write.

[Fist and Faith]

Darth, I'd like to run this idea by you.

I have no idea what the stuff is called, but there's these little strips of paper that they put in people's mouths. Some people say, "Huh? What's this supposed to do?" Others squinch up their faces, and say, "Yuck, that's bitter!" Some people can taste the substance that was sprayed onto these strips of paper, and others cannot. But, although I suppose such was not always the case, there are other ways of testing for this substance. So let's look at a better example.

In music, some people have what is called perfect pitch. If these people hear a note being played, on any instrument, they can tell you what note it is. In fact, if they hear a car horn, or a flourescent light humming, or a car's fanbelt squeal, or your sneaker squeal when you rub it along the floor, they can tell you what note it is!! They can go to the piano and hit the note that we hear in whatever noise we're listening to. What's more, you can drop something onto the piano's keys, something that hits several keys at once, and, though they were not looking, they can tell you what keys it hit!

Despite my BA in Music History, and years of piano lessons, I cannot do any of this. I have NO idea how they do it; no idea what they hear that I do not. AFAIK, nobody has ever been able to detect anything, no matter what kind of machinery or electronics the use, that explains it. Some people can hear it, and most cannot. I've often wondered why Mozart didn't just write all of his piano pieces in C-major, so he (and we) wouldn't have to bother with as many black keys. What's the point in composing a sonata in A-flat? It makes no sense, other than for the sake of appearing sophisticated, eh? **BUT** Mozart heard every note, every chord, in ways I do not. What did he hear?? What is there that might make it preferable for a certain melody, and its harmonies, to be put in A-flat instead of C?? It's nonsense.

To me.

Because I can't tell the difference; nobody who CAN tell the difference can define it; and nobody can give any scientific reason for it.

I assume everybody knows where this is going. I know for a fact that some people can sense things that I cannot. It's been demonstrated to me many times. This is why I cannot, just because I cannot sense God the way Fire says she does, claim to know that there is no God.

[GREEK TRAGEDY]

As you say, everything is part of his plan. He planned for us to kill all the people we killed, so it's not our fault.

Come on now, Nathan, you know thats not true. We all make our own choices in life. What God suffers from is the helplessness of power. If WE CHOSE, we could each live peaceful, loving and giving lives, and the world would be a great place, but because of corruption, evil, greed etc., our world is not perfect, but it could be if we wanted it to be. And rather than simply step in and take over God gave us 6000 years to try to learn for ourselves. He isnt going to MAKE US destroy ourselves, He simply saw from the beginning that we would do that to ourselves, and at that point, the point when we have gone too far, only then will He finally take over. The little nudges He uses throughout history were meant to keep promises He made to us thousands of years ago (see your weekly dissertation) to Abraham and his descendants. If you follow secular HISTORY, you will see that He has kept all His promises. I do not rely simply on faith, but I prove to myself CONSTANTLY, that the Bible has facts to back it up. These facts aren't as easy to find as you're average history book, but then, nothing worthwhile is ever easy. I respect your opinions, but in these circumstances, I believe (just my opinion, and not intended to offend) that your view of religion might be a bit jaded....

Look at the health laws God handed down to Moses. They were thousands of years ahead of thier time!!! We are just now learning the value of these laws in our present age! I find many of the arguments against and for His existence to be based soley on I believe/ I dont belive criteria, while most of my belief is based on biblical evidence, and not so much on 'faith' per se.

Again no offense intended, but I'm pretty secure in my standing, and have no fear, you're not rocking my boat.

-B

[Loredoctor]

That's right, Fist. Revan, it is considered a mistake of logic to argue that something doesn't exist because of a lack of evidence. Perhaps we 'lack' evidence because we don't have fine enough instruments or are looking in the right way. My approach to God is that I have no opinions as to His/Her/Its existence; I cannot prove's God's existence, nor can I disprove. That's why I'm Agnostic.

[[Syl]]

There are a lot of laws in the Torah, many of which nobody but the most orthodox would consider following (read Deuteronomy). Of all the laws written in the Torah, at least one of them should turn out to be beneficial. And I'd argue that it wouldn't take a genius to figure out not to eat pork in the desert (Trichinosis?). If Moses were around today, he'd probably tell us not to eat anything out of swollen aluminum cans.

Schroedinger's God, then? Until the box is opened up, God is both existant and nonexistant. I like this idea. However, I would say that it's usually considered a mistake in logic, if not an exercise in futility, to try to prove a negative. The burden of proof lies upon the real.

[Loredoctor]

Schroedinger's God, then? Until the box is opened up, God is both existant and nonexistant.

Brilliance!

[CovenantJr]

Because I can't tell the difference; nobody who CAN tell the difference can define it; and nobody can give any scientific reason for it.

Nicely said

Schroedinger's God, then? Until the box is opened up, God is both existant and nonexistant.

Brilliance!

Indeed

[GREEK TRAGEDY]

How about this Sylvanus? In the health laws of the Torah, God commands that no circumcision should be done until the eighth day after birth, for seemingly no reason whatsoever. Scientists have recently discovered that the blood clotting mechanism in infants does not manifest until the eighth day! What about not eating crustaceans and oysters/clams? These are natural forms of filtration for bodies of water, eating them is not much different than eating out of a vacuum cleaner bag, not to mention that crabs and other shellfish consume waste matter from the ocean floor, making them dangerous to eat. Disposal of waste material, banning the eating of blood (blood bourne diseases existed even then), as well as disease prevention! Every part of the health code that was set down at the time has proven valid thousands of years later. Even the maternity stages for women at that time was designed to give women and thier children a better start in life (infant mortality was undoubtedly high at the time.).

I find some facts too hard to ignore, and the logic behind the Torah's health laws are all too obvious, and certainly could not have been explained logically (or scientifically) at that time. Yet there they were, before we ever understood what/why they were there. Think about it.

-B

[Nathan]

He simply saw from the beginning that we would do that to ourselves

I've already said this: In that case it was a mistake to create us in the first place, or he created us flawed. Either of those explanations is contradictory to other things said in the bible, therefore the bible cannot be trusted.

[A Gunslinger]

I do. Though I am not sure what form it takes.

[Revan]

Tell people, ye faithful ones... What is the point in life, if God makes all out choices for us? Doesn't sound much like a God to me. and how can we burn in hell for out sins, if God controlled us?

What God suffers from is the helplessness of power.

What God suffers from, my friend, is the helplessness of non-existance. He was made up by Man-Kind.

[[Syl]]

How about this Sylvanus? In the health laws of the Torah, God commands that no circumcision should be done until the eighth day after birth, for seemingly no reason whatsoever. Scientists have recently discovered that the blood clotting mechanism in infants does not manifest until the eighth day! What about not eating crustaceans and oysters/clams? These are natural forms of filtration for bodies of water, eating them is not much different than eating out of a vacuum cleaner bag, not to mention that crabs and other shellfish consume waste matter from the ocean floor, making them dangerous to eat. Disposal of waste material, banning the eating of blood (blood bourne diseases existed even then), as well as disease prevention! Every part of the health code that was set down at the time has proven valid thousands of years later. Even the maternity stages for women at that time was designed to give women and thier children a better start in life (infant mortality was undoubtedly high at the time.).

You're picking and choosing, though. I could do the same thing to 18th century medicine and make them look learned in a way that would put modern steampunk authors to shame. Just because the people of biblical times didn't have microscopes and centrifuges doesn't mean they couldn't observe natural phenomena, especially in such a striking manifestation as death and illness. Many civilizations all over the world adapted and learned in order to survive, most of them without the teachings of Moses. Doesn't mean I'm going to start believing in their religions as well.

Besides, if you're going to do something as strange as cutting off a perfectly healthy piece of your body, you better know how to do it right.

[Furls irked at cookies]

God does not make my choices for me. He shows me the path He wishes for me to take, and "I" CHOOSE to take it. I could easily just turn my back on His guidance and plan for me, and choose to live my life differently. Ah, but you know, I would not feel the joy of His light and presence in my heart if I did that.

Darth, I never once tried to "prove" God's existance to you. I simply didn't want you to try and prove His non-existance to me. Believe or don't believe...the choice is yours. But, many times you have said to me, "I wish I had the faith you have." "I wish I could believe like you do." That is why I kept pointing you to Stephen. It was never to "prove" anything to you. It was just to guide you to Him, because Stephen help many others find their way to God and Jesus. And, as I said before, I can't "prove" anything to you. My faith was born in me, my heart and soul were consumed by the Holy Spirit when I was a very small child. And, it wasn't through any church teaching, or Bible reading either. It was just THERE, my friend. It's there in everyone...but sometimes very hard to find. Fist has it, tho he sees it differently, but he has it. Danlo has it, Duchy has it, Brinn has it...YOU have it Darth. I know you don't think you do, but just by all your questionings, all your inquiries, even your desire for "proof" shows you have it in your heart. Read Stephen, he'll help you find it.

I will say this too. When Isaiah came to me, he had no faith in God. He believed God sentenced him to a living hell, by making him homosexual and then by placing him within a family and community would despised him for what he was. He also thought he was being punished for being homosexual when he contracted AIDS. He never felt love, or support, or caring...just hate. All because of the way God made him. So, he did not feel any love or belief in God. Then, miraculously, by the Hand of God Himself, Isaiah found his way here, then to me, and ultimately to Stephen. By the time Isaiah passed, his faith had been restored, his heart was full of love, and his soul held God's peace. Isaiah passed knowing he was loved, knowing he was not an abomination, and knowing that there IS "also love in the world".

I do not believe for one second that all of that was coinicidence. It has happened too many times in my life and in Stephen's life for it to be. Stephen was a doorway, and liason if you will. God sent him people all the time. These people dreamt of him, heard his name whispered in their sleep. They sought him out not even knowing why. And Darth, that is NOT opinion, that is FACT.

You say you would believe Him if He came to you and told you who He was. Well, He can't do that if you refuse to listen for Him.

Despite my BA in Music History, and years of piano lessons, I cannot do any of this. I have NO idea how they do it; no idea what they hear that I do not. AFAIK, nobody has ever been able to detect anything, no matter what kind of machinery or electronics the use, that explains it. Some people can hear it, and most cannot. I've often wondered why Mozart didn't just write all of his piano pieces in C-major, so he (and we) wouldn't have to bother with as many black keys. What's the point in composing a sonata in A-flat? It makes no sense, other than for the sake of appearing sophisticated, eh? **BUT** Mozart heard every note, every chord, in ways I do not. What did he hear?? What is there that might make it preferable for a certain melody, and its harmonies, to be put in A-flat instead of C?? It's nonsense

Stephen could do this Big surprise, huh?