can we tell the truth

Free discussion of anything human or divine ~ Philosophy, Religion and Spirituality

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Do you believe in god?

Yes
14
48%
No
15
52%
 
Total votes: 29

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Revan
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Post by Revan »

Furls irked at cookies wrote:God does not make my choices for me. He shows me the path He wishes for me to take, and "I" CHOOSE to take it. I could easily just turn my back on His guidance and plan for me, and choose to live my life differently. Ah, but you know, I would not feel the joy of His light and presence in my heart if I did that.

Darth, I never once tried to "prove" God's existance to you. I simply didn't want you to try and prove His non-existance to me. Believe or don't believe...the choice is yours. But, many times you have said to me, "I wish I had the faith you have." "I wish I could believe like you do." That is why I kept pointing you to Stephen. It was never to "prove" anything to you. It was just to guide you to Him, because Stephen help many others find their way to God and Jesus. And, as I said before, I can't "prove" anything to you. My faith was born in me, my heart and soul were consumed by the Holy Spirit when I was a very small child. And, it wasn't through any church teaching, or Bible reading either. It was just THERE, my friend. It's there in everyone...but sometimes very hard to find. Fist has it, tho he sees it differently, but he has it. Danlo has it, Duchy has it, Brinn has it...YOU have it Darth. I know you don't think you do, but just by all your questionings, all your inquiries, even your desire for "proof" shows you have it in your heart. Read Stephen, he'll help you find it.

I will say this too. When Isaiah came to me, he had no faith in God. He believed God sentenced him to a living hell, by making him homosexual and then by placing him within a family and community would despised him for what he was. He also thought he was being punished for being homosexual when he contracted AIDS. He never felt love, or support, or caring...just hate. All because of the way God made him. So, he did not feel any love or belief in God. Then, miraculously, by the Hand of God Himself, Isaiah found his way here, then to me, and ultimately to Stephen. By the time Isaiah passed, his faith had been restored, his heart was full of love, and his soul held God's peace. Isaiah passed knowing he was loved, knowing he was not an abomination, and knowing that there IS "also love in the world".

I do not believe for one second that all of that was coinicidence. It has happened too many times in my life and in Stephen's life for it to be. Stephen was a doorway, and liason if you will. God sent him people all the time. These people dreamt of him, heard his name whispered in their sleep. They sought him out not even knowing why. And Darth, that is NOT opinion, that is FACT.

You say you would believe Him if He came to you and told you who He was. Well, He can't do that if you refuse to listen for Him. :hearts:
Fist wrote:Despite my BA in Music History, and years of piano lessons, I cannot do any of this. I have NO idea how they do it; no idea what they hear that I do not. AFAIK, nobody has ever been able to detect anything, no matter what kind of machinery or electronics the use, that explains it. Some people can hear it, and most cannot. I've often wondered why Mozart didn't just write all of his piano pieces in C-major, so he (and we) wouldn't have to bother with as many black keys. What's the point in composing a sonata in A-flat? It makes no sense, other than for the sake of appearing sophisticated, eh? **BUT** Mozart heard every note, every chord, in ways I do not. What did he hear?? What is there that might make it preferable for a certain melody, and its harmonies, to be put in A-flat instead of C?? It's nonsense
Stephen could do this :D Big surprise, huh?
If that was part of God's plan,. why did God make him ill in the first place? Or your brother? Why would God make such a good human-being ill? Stephen, by the sounds of it, was a much nicer human than most humans we have on this earth? Why make him ill? That doesn't make sense. :?
And Darth, that is NOT opinion, that is FACT.
Is it? Show me the proof then. Fact should have the ability to be proven. Prove it. And I'll believe you on that matter.
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duchess of malfi
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Post by duchess of malfi »

But God didn't make him ill, Darth. Tainted blood he received after an accident made him ill...

Sickness and pain and death happen to us all...its just the way the world is. (and no, I'm not going to get into a debate on why God did or did not make the world that way -- to me a belief or disbelief or neutral stance on God is a very personal decision). What matters for all of us is what we learn from our pain. Do we become bitter at the world and at each other or do we learn compassion from such experiences?
Love as thou wilt.

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Post by Fist and Faith »

Furls irked at cookies wrote:Stephen could do this :D Big surprise, huh?
8O You could knock me over with a feather! :lol:
duchess of malfi wrote:What matters for all of us is what we learn from our pain. Do we become bitter at the world and at each other or do we learn compassion from such experiences?
This is an important point. In many ways, humans are defined by our struggles. What would the world be like without any struggle? If the air's temperature was perfectly matched to our bodies', if nobody ever got sick, if everybody had every answer they ever needed, if, if, if... We'd get up every day, do the same thing every day, go to bed each night... That's more than boring, that's a meaningless existence. Our meaning comes from our struggles.

So should we have just some struggle, but not as much as we have? Does that make any sense? Would we find the same fulfillment if we knew in advance, in every case, that it would all work out a certain way? That we were only being tested a little? Would Brinn have found the meaning of the Haruchai if ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol had kicked him a few times, then said, "OK, that's enough testing. You did pretty good."?

Darth, let's say, for the sake of argument, that God exists. Assuming you meet Him, how will you tell him things should be? What's the best way for a reality to be?

btw, I keep posting here for two reasons. First, I agree with Fire. You keep saying things that seem to say you want some kind of faith. I'm (a few of us are) just trying to give you alternatives to the kinds of faith you've always heard about, and don't like. Things need not be the Hell & Torment kind of thing many were taught.

Second, even if you don't ever believe, it would be good for all of us who don't to understand that faith and reason are not mutually exclusive. You may not agree with the view of people like Fire, but I hope you'll come to view it as other than irrational. (And maybe that's not what you think anyway, but maybe others who are reading this, or will read this, do. I certainly did earlier in my life.)
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
-Paul Simon

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Post by Nathan »

This is an important point. In many ways, humans are defined by our struggles. What would the world be like without any struggle? If the air's temperature was perfectly matched to our bodies', if nobody ever got sick, if everybody had every answer they ever needed, if, if, if... We'd get up every day, do the same thing every day, go to bed each night... That's more than boring, that's a meaningless existence. Our meaning comes from our struggles.
Very true, indeed everything you're saying (and others are saying) seems to have merit, it all makes sense, it all makes a point. The one thing it fails to do is prove the existence (or, assuming he does exist, his worthiness) of God. All of the things you (and others) say can still be true in a world where no God exists.
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Post by CovenantJr »

But, again, no-one here is trying to "prove" God's existence. It's just discussion :)
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Nathan wrote:
I wrote:This is an important point. In many ways, humans are defined by our struggles. What would the world be like without any struggle? If the air's temperature was perfectly matched to our bodies', if nobody ever got sick, if everybody had every answer they ever needed, if, if, if... We'd get up every day, do the same thing every day, go to bed each night... That's more than boring, that's a meaningless existence. Our meaning comes from our struggles.
Very true, indeed everything you're saying (and others are saying) seems to have merit, it all makes sense, it all makes a point. The one thing it fails to do is prove the existence (or, assuming he does exist, his worthiness) of God. All of the things you (and others) say can still be true in a world where no God exists.
Since I don't particularly believe that any g/God exists, I agree. :D And as CJ says, nobody else is trying to prove God's existence either. Not even Fire, who most certainly does believe He exists.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
-Paul Simon

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Post by Fire Daughter »

Darth, you took what my mother said out of context. When she said "that is not opinion, it is fact." she was refering to people being pulled to my Uncle Steve. And there is definately proof of that happening. There are about 100 mini tape recorder tapes that have conversations on them between my uncle and these people. And though they all come from different places, and are from different backgrounds, there is one thing they have in common. They saw my Uncle in their dreams, and set out to find him. :)

Oh, and God didn't make him sick. HIV tainted blood made him sick. God gave him the strength to live his life richly and fully. Uncle Steve never blamed God for his sickness, Uncle Steve thanked God for his life and accepted what he needed too. :)
For Myles--
When evening shadows and the stars appear
And there is no one to dry your tears
I could hold you for a million years
To make you feel my love


For Mom--
Did you ever know that you're my hero,
and everything I would like to be?
I can fly higher than an eagle,
for you are the wind beneath my wings.

Fly...fly high against the sky...
Thank you, thank you, thank God for you
The wind beneath my wings


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Revan
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Post by Revan »

Fist and Faith wrote:Darth, let's say, for the sake of argument, that God exists. Assuming you meet Him, how will you tell him things should be? What's the best way for a reality to be?
Bah, I wouldn't tell him anything... I would just ask him why he created humans in the first place? Why create us the way we are, and then set 10 rules we must abide by, despite the fact that YOU made us able to brake these "Commandments?"
Fire Daughter wrote:Darth, you took what my mother said out of context. When she said "that is not opinion, it is fact." she was refering to people being pulled to my Uncle Steve. And there is definately proof of that happening. There are about 100 mini tape recorder tapes that have conversations on them between my uncle and these people. And though they all come from different places, and are from different backgrounds, there is one thing they have in common. They saw my Uncle in their dreams, and set out to find him. :)

Oh, and God didn't make him sick. HIV tainted blood made him sick. God gave him the strength to live his life richly and fully. Uncle Steve never blamed God for his sickness, Uncle Steve thanked God for his life and accepted what he needed too. :)
I didn't say God made him sick. I don't believe in God; he doesn't exist, how could something that doesn't exist make someone sick? :?

Sorry for mistaking your mothers words btw. :(

But I'm saying, if God did exist; Why create HIV in the first place? This God of yours sounds very malice driven imo.
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Post by Loredoctor »

Careful, Darth. According to Christians, their God doesn't do that - Satan does.
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Post by Revan »

Ur-Vile wrote:Careful, Darth. According to Christians, their God doesn't do that - Satan does.
Then God is weak then? If Satan is able to outdo him... Let evil exist in the world. Why doesn't God do anything about Satan? :?
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Post by Loredoctor »

Darth are you in a bad mood or what? have some respect for the members who respect you. leave off trying to pull apart their religion.
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Post by Revan »

Ur-Vile wrote:Darth are you in a bad mood or what? have some respect for the members who respect you. leave off trying to pull apart their religion.
I do have some respect! I respect Furls more than I do most people on this forum! So don't say I'm not showing respect... I'm not trying to oull apart their religion at all... I understand that such delicate issues ought to be handled with care... but I'm trying to discuss something here... I have no doubt Furls will have an excellent answer for me 8) :D
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Darth Revan wrote:
Fist and Faith wrote:Darth, let's say, for the sake of argument, that God exists. Assuming you meet Him, how will you tell him things should be? What's the best way for a reality to be?
Bah, I wouldn't tell him anything... I would just ask him why he created humans in the first place? Why create us the way we are, and then set 10 rules we must abide by, despite the fact that YOU made us able to brake these "Commandments?"
We're having two different conversations here. You are entirely devoted to a specific Judeo/Christian tradition. By "devoted," I mean that is the only one you can conceive of, despite all the things some people (Cate is a good example) and I have been saying. And so when I say, "How will you tell God things should be," you can only respond to that concept of God.

What I'm talking about, however, is simply a creator that we don't have to define at all. You're saying that the world has so much wrong with it, which you consider evidence against a creator. After all, if it was intentionally designed, why so badly? So I'm asking how you would improve it, and what you would say if it turns out there IS a creator, and you meet this being. What I'm getting at is a Bruce Almighty idea. Bruce constantly complained that God was stupid, and did it all wrong. So God gave Bruce the same power that He had, and told him to do what he wanted. Fix things. It turns out that there isn't a better system than the one we have.

Now, of course, I'm not saying that the fact that we couldn't come up with a better universe - one that does away with the bad without doing away with the things that are most important to us - is evidence of any creator. I'm just saying that the things we don't like about the universe are not evidence that there isn't a creator.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
-Paul Simon

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Post by [Syl] »

Bruce obviously wasn't much of a sci-fi or fantasy fan. I mean the whole prayer bit. You're omnipotent, man. Create a temporary copy of yourself for each prayer that as soon as the prayer is answered (positively or negatively as the case requires) reassimilates into yourself. Sure, you might need to create alternate dimensions to house all these selfs, but that couldn't be that hard for an omnipotent being.

To get back on topic, I guess that's the main thing for me. I can get the Deists who see a creator creating the universe and walking away. What I don't get is the belief in a god that showed such a tremendous level of attention to mankind once upon a time, but now seems to only operate at a distance. What's so great and valuable about Moses that can't be found or is worth looking for in any of us? Jesus will tell you that we are all the children of God, but God seems to play favorites.

An omnipotent being should be able to save all of us except for those determined to rebel. I'll take a bodhisattva (say, Jesus) over a prophet any day. Apparently, though, a loving God that gives the universe Hell has limited patience or faith in its own creation that it can eventually get it right.

So what about Hell? God created Lucifer, Lucifer rebels (implying that he and the other angels have free will, something I've always lead to believe is not the case), he and the others are cast down into Hell. The trial run goes so well He creates beings with even less advantages and expects them to do better. It's all part of God's plan, so apparently at least a few people are destined to go to hell, otherwise God is proved fallible and ceases to exist (thank you Kevin Smith). No chance of that when you stack the deck, though.

I don't want it to sound like I'm against God. Hopefully anyone who has read any of my other posts regarding spirituality knows this. I am, however, against a narrowly defined or dogmatic definition of god. Moreso, I am against any religion that oppresses man or devalues his worth outside of the spiritual arena. If you believe that a man can devote himself to the improvement of himself and society but still go to hell because he doesn't believe in Jay-ee-zus...
"It is not the literal past that rules us, save, possibly, in a biological sense. It is images of the past. Each new historical era mirrors itself in the picture and active mythology of its past or of a past borrowed from other cultures. It tests its sense of identity, of regress or new achievement against that past.”
-George Steiner
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Post by Worm of Despite »

Caer Sylvanus wrote:If you believe that a man can devote himself to the improvement of himself and society but still go to hell because he doesn't believe in Jay-ee-zus...
Amen!
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Caer Sylvanus wrote:Bruce obviously wasn't much of a sci-fi or fantasy fan. I mean the whole prayer bit. You're omnipotent, man. Create a temporary copy of yourself for each prayer that as soon as the prayer is answered (positively or negatively as the case requires) reassimilates into yourself. Sure, you might need to create alternate dimensions to house all these selfs, but that couldn't be that hard for an omnipotent being.
Yeah, omnipotence without omniscience is a drag, man! Interestingly enough, when Dr. Doom stole the Beyonder's power, he found that omniscience came along with the deal; that you can't have the power without the knowledge. But still, the omniscience he gained was more akin to Captain Mar-vell's cosmic awareness, so maybe his tactical skills and imagination weren't increased. Mind you, Doom had buckets of those things anyway! As he told Storm, "I have forgotten more about strategy than you will ever learn."


ummm... What were we talking about??
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
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Post by Revan »

Fist and Faith wrote:
Darth Revan wrote:We're having two different conversations here. You are entirely devoted to a specific Judeo/Christian tradition. By "devoted," I mean that is the only one you can conceive of, despite all the things some people (Cate is a good example) and I have been saying. And so when I say, "How will you tell God things should be," you can only respond to that concept of God.

What I'm talking about, however, is simply a creator that we don't have to define at all. You're saying that the world has so much wrong with it, which you consider evidence against a creator. After all, if it was intentionally designed, why so badly? So I'm asking how you would improve it, and what you would say if it turns out there IS a creator, and you meet this being. What I'm getting at is a Bruce Almighty idea. Bruce constantly complained that God was stupid, and did it all wrong. So God gave Bruce the same power that He had, and told him to do what he wanted. Fix things. It turns out that there isn't a better system than the one we have.

Now, of course, I'm not saying that the fact that we couldn't come up with a better universe - one that does away with the bad without doing away with the things that are most important to us - is evidence of any creator. I'm just saying that the things we don't like about the universe are not evidence that there isn't a creator.
Can I ask you people a question? I was wondering, considering you believe in God... You prebably believe that God has this plan for us all :roll: That would mean, really, that we're nothing but a clot of sheep walking around doing the things that he wanted doing? Does anyone seriously believe that?
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Since I don’t claim to know one way or the other whether there even is any god/God/creator, I couldn’t very well believe that such a being has a plan for us, eh? :) But let me throw this “plan” at you. From Richard Bach’s Illusions:
There was a Master come unto the earth, born in the holy land of Indiana, raised in the mystical hills east of Fort Wayne.

The Master learned of this world in the public schools of Indiana, and as he grew, in his trade as a mechanic of automobiles.

[I’ll skip the parts about him becoming known far and wide, being a healer, and all that. Only several paragraphs, but no need for this post. Great book, though, so go read it!! :)]

And it came to pass when he saw that the multitude thronged him the more day on day, tighter and closer and fiercer than ever they had, when he saw that they pressed him to heal them without rest, and feed them always with his miracles, to learn for them and to live their lives, he went alone that day unto a hilltop apart, and there he prayed.

And he said in his heart, Infinite Radiant Is, if it be thy will, let this cup pass from me, let me lay aside this impossible task. I cannot live the life of one other soul, yet ten thousand cry to me for life. I’m sorry I allowed it all to happen. If it be thy will, let me go back to my engines and my tools and let me live as other men.

And a voice spoke to him on the hilltop, a voice neither male nor female, loud nor soft, a voice infinitely kind. And the voice said unto him, “Not my will, but thine be done. For what is thy will is mine for thee. Go thy way as other men, and be thou happy on the earth.”

And hearing, the Master was glad, and gave thanks, and came down from the hilltop humming a little mechanic’s song. And when the throng pressed him with its woes, beseeching him to heal for it and learn for it and feed it nonstop from his understanding and to entertain it with his wonders, he smiled upon the multitude and said pleasantly unto them, “I quit.”

For a moment the multitude was stricken dumb with astonishment.

And he said unto them, “If a man told God that he wanted most of all to help the suffering world, no matter the price to himself, and God answered and told him what he must do, should the man do as he is told?”

“Of course, Master!” cried the many. “It should be pleasure for him to suffer the tortures of hell itself, should God ask it!”

“No matter what those tortures, nor how difficult the task?”

“Honor to be hanged, glory to be nailed to a tree and burned, if so be that God has asked,” they said.

“And what would you do,” the Master said unto the multitude, “if God spoke directly to your face and said, ‘I COMMAND THAT YOU BE HAPPY IN THE WORLD, AS LONG AS YOU LIVE.’ What would you do then?”

And the multitude was silent, not a voice, not a sound was heard upon the hillsides, across the valleys where they stood.

And the Master said unto the silence, “In the path of our happiness shall we find the learning for which we have chosen this lifetime. So it is that I have learned this day, and choose to leave you now to walk your own path, as you please.”

And he went his way through the crowds and left them, and he returned to the everyday world of men and machines.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
-Paul Simon

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Post by Guest »

Fist and Faith wrote:Since I don’t claim to know one way or the other whether there even is any god/God/creator, I couldn’t very well believe that such a being has a plan for us, eh? :) But let me throw this “plan” at you. From Richard Bach’s Illusions:

...And hearing, the Master was glad, and gave thanks, and came down from the hilltop humming a little mechanic’s song.
Hmmm, so what's a little mechanics song? I'm picturing this guy whistling Thunder Road or some other liberating car/highway song!

I love the message in this passage. It's simply written yet right on. I know its been said many times in different ways, but people must work out their own spirituality. I like to think of it as a Happiness Plan. :)

I was raised in a community where organized religion (catholicism) outlined this Happiness Plan for me. It was reassuring (stick to the plan and soar into heaven) yet scary (stray and go directly to hell :twisted: ) In some fashion or another many people stick with it by adhering to some or all of the basics--weekly mass attendance, donations, confession, prayer etc. Some of them seem to get something out of it all, others simply go through the motions (after all who wants to go to hell?)

I'm still working out my Happiness Plan. Doing lots of soul searching and all of that. I've scrapped all of the rituals of my Catholic upbringing and have been trying to assimilate all of the good things I've learned from the church into my life. Some days I have difficulty believing in a god, other days I question my sanity for doubting the existence of such a being. The road to happiness lies within each individual, however, the words of gods, prophets, philosophers and literary geniuses makes this road a liiiittle easier to travel!
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Post by Tulizar »

That was me! :oops:
Proverbs for Paranoids #3.

If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers.
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