Lords, ur-Lords, and possibilities

[Realmtreader]

I recall Mouseglove (*bows*) loosely detailing something s/he heard during the conference which Stephen attended and read from his newest work. S/he said that the segment which was read concerned Linden having melded with Ranyhyn and, in that, being able to run with them (despite the exertion it involved). I had always thought . . . if Linden and Covenant had just melded (instead of her having to force a connection), then much of the conflicts that the two faced would have been considerably easy to bear. I am not sure exactly how melding would have worked in such context . . . but perhaps he would not have had to worry about losing his control (remember that during the ordeal at the cave of the One Tree, the wild magic linked the two of them, and for that time, Covenant's senses were sharpened by his connection to Linden - and her ability to counter his efforts was strengthened by that same connection, I believe), and she may have been able to use some of his power to both of their advantages, without there having been any real violation. However, I realize that would have spoiled some of the story, and that option, I'm sure, was not so easily accessible to someone who had not been trained as a Lord - I remember that in the First Chronicles, it was stated that melding was something the New Lords invented, as opposed to it being part of Kevin's Lore - even though I think someone said earlier on this board that Linden's health sense was far more sensitive than most people of the Land before the Sunbane. Of course, perhaps it would not have been plausible at all due to Covenant's lack of health percipience. Also, for people as autonomous and self-depenent as Thomas Covenant and Linden Avery, the idea of even a meld may have seemed threatening.
Also . . . I am wondering if in the Third Chronicles there will be a renewed Council of Lords, or some entirely new establishment. And if there is a new Council, then perhaps will Linden be an ur-Lord?
I had often contemplated the "ur" prefix. I had always thought it was merely contextual, that it had little denotive meaning and only added elaboration or created a distinction between Lord/ur-Lord, Vile/ur-vile. However, perhaps there is some other meanings for the "ur" prefix, which may be based upon some linguistics in our world, like Elohim and Infelice (which draws a rather interesting connection between the two worlds).
And, didn't somebody say that it seemed probable for Covenant himself to be the antogonistic character in the Third Chronicles? It think it would rather make sense to say that Covevnant could live on, but perhaps only in the Land, somewhat like Hile Troy/Caer Caveral. And it would add a very interesting twist.
Of course, I'm exceptionally curious as to whether or not Linden's son will have any special property or ability - and any other new characters. There are so many possibilities that it is staggering.

[caamora]

The possibilities are endless, to be sure.

As far as the "ur" in ur-Lord, I always took that to equate "sub" or a branching off of the original. Does that make sense? TC is not a lord but since he has the white gold and is the utimate power, he is given the title of sub-lord. Just as the ur-viles were produced from the viles (did I read that somewhere in the books? Maybe not ). Anyway, that is how I saw it.

[kastenessen]

In Swedish "Ur" is a prefix that means "origin" or The Original", it's used that way in all of scandinavia. "Ur-Lord" Would therefore mean "Father of all Lords" or "The First Lord". I've always read it that way because it seemed natural to me. Never occurred to me you could read it in any othe way.

In an interview in W.A. Senior's Variations on the Fantasy Traditions SRD says
"...and very often when I steal words from foreign languages, I am stealing words that I know the meaning of and I am using them precisely because they have that fortuitous combination of sound and meaning where they either reinforce eachother or in certain cases directly-well, they reinforce eachother or I use them in ways that they directly contradict themselves."

[dukkha]

I agree with the "ur" as "first" definition. I think that the Lords are giving Covenant precedence with the title.

I can't imagine Covenant as the enemy of the Land. This, to me, would completely denigrate SRD's achievement in the first two series. Namely, a completely convincing realization of a man whose flaws--some of them huge flaws--become the means by which he prevails against evil. Covenant is such a morally rigorous, if conficted, character that I can't imagine how he could be made into a primary evil character.

Also I agree that the idea of the melding, while interesting, would have gone against Linden and Covenant's characters. They would have had to do a lot of work to get themselves to the point where they could meld.

[caamora]

Sounds good to me!

[fightingmyinstincts]

I always took ur to mean sort of "other, but just as good as"...Like he's the same as the lords, but different...yeah that made just oodles of sense...

[Celebel]

SRD is certainly into layered meaning in his writings, but let's not get carried away. It seems clear to me that 'ur' in the context of ur-viles and ur-Lords means 'pseudo' or perhaps 'derived from.' We can imagine that Covenent, or rather the power of his ring, is the First Lord, but ur-Viles are clearly derived from Viles, and not superior to them. I believe that the Swedish connection was not intended by SRD.
Here's another point. Samadhi is a sanskrit word meaning: "the state of complete mental absorption in one object, with the cessation of thought and egoic activity. In samadhi the mind becomes one with the object of concentration. If applied to the Divinity within, samadhi enables one to become absorbed in God by direct communion." Does this sound like a Raver? Perhaps the opposite of one? Or...Samadhi is close to the French word Samedi, for Saturday. Are we to assume that Sheol was 'the weekend Raver"?
(Drops two pennies on the table)
Later,
Celebel Manabrimbor

[CovenantJr]

I always took ur to mean sort of "other, but just as good as"...Like he's the same as the lords, but different...yeah that made just oodles of sense...

Me too.

On the topic of TC being the villain of the peice in the Third Chronicles, I think it could be done without violating TC's integrity. Remember near the end of the Second Chrons *SPOILER ALERT* Linden was trying to stop TC giving the ring to LF, and we (or at least I) were torn between trusting TC and worrying about whether Harridan Linden was right. TC as the antagonist could be done in a similar way, with Linden et al trying to oppose his apparent ill intent, but TC knowing best all along, or vice versa. If anyone could pull this off, it's SRD. However, I think it's unlikely, for the very reason that SRD has already taken us down that path, as descibed above.

[jacob Raver, sinTempter]

I think SRD admitted that his use of Ur is the opposite of the actual meaning.

[Vraith]

Samadhi is a sanskrit word meaning: "the state of complete mental absorption in one object, with the cessation of thought and egoic activity. In samadhi the mind becomes one with the object of concentration. If applied to the Divinity within, samadhi enables one to become absorbed in God by direct communion." Does this sound like a Raver?

And yet, SRD has said that he did specifically name the ravers as he did. [the other 2 are also state of consciousness/being, from the same source].
If I recall correctly, these states are pertinent to what they are, but also the way they view themselves [a view no other being in the Land would agree with]

[AjK]

Agreed. From the GI:

Hi. I'd like to know if your childhood in India has had an influence on your work - whether you drew on Indian culture in the creation of the Land. Also, are the Hindu terms used as names for Foul's Ravers deliberately in contrast to their Land and Giant names? - and is there any reason why you chose those terms and not others? ~Ian

Does India influence my work? Absolutely. And absolutely not. It has a profound effect because it helped shape who I am as a writer and as a person. India is a very melodramatic country, full of stark contrasts between exoticism/mystery/beauty and destitution/pain/cruelty. BUT. I *never* (by which I mean only once, in "The Man Who Fought Alone") draw consciously on personal experience when I write. I don't base characters on people I've known; I don't base settings on places I've been; and I certainly don't base situations on problems I've experienced (not in any literal sense, anyway).

Yes, the Hindi (or, more properly, Sanskrit) names for the Ravers are deliberate. Moksha, turiya, and samadhi refer to various states of enlightenment. This reflects how the Ravers think of themselves. Their other names reflect how other people think of them.

(04/14/2004)