Thoughts of a Dying Atheist

[I'm Murrin]

it scares the hell out of me
and the end is all i can see
and it scares the hell out of me
and the end is all i can see

~Thoughts of a Dying Atheist, Muse

This topic is for the atheists at the Watch. As you may know, I myself am an atheist, and one thing that scares me is thought thought of what will happen when I die. The idea that one day I will simply stop, that my existence will come to a complete end, terrifies me. I just wanted to see what the other non-believers here think about death - how do feel about death? How do you cope with the thought that one day your entire existence will come to an end?

[Per7]

Not sure i should call myself an atheist.. more of an agnostic (spelling?)...

I assume when I die that is it, no more me in any way. I don’t think of it much and I am nor scared about it, they way I think about it is to fall asleep and not dream and not wakeup.

/P7

[matrixman]

What makes me sad when I think about my own death is that all my memories, everything that makes me uniquely who I am, will simply be gone.

I'm always moved by Rutger Hauer's words at the end of Blade Runner, as he sits dying in front of Harrison Ford's character: "All those memories...will be lost...like tears in the rain."

[Edinburghemma]

I don't feel afraid of death at all, atleast not yet. The thought of nothingness can be terrifying, but the thought of pain must be worse. It is the process of dying which bothers me rather than the end result.

[Worm of Despite]

Since I was practically nothing billions of years before being born, being nothing for billions more won't be much of a change. I've only been alive for an eye blink, really; geologically, I might as well have never existed. I don't expect a big afterlife with all questions answered. I don't expect anything. If nothing happens, it's something I can't control. Death gives no thought of me, so I will give it none back.

As far as fearing a painful death goes: the only comfort I will have in such a death is that the pain is transitory, and it's also something I probably can't control. Although, if I were terminal with some debilitating disease and in constant physical and mental pain, I'd probably just kill myself and get the pointless agony over with.

cut off everything from everything stand here the soles of your
feet the ground
your brain in the black nothing between

I woke from a dream of death to day's amazing
death grass death rice death chairs death death asleep or awake

no words sitting alone night in my hut eyes closed hands open
wisps of an unknown face
my death? who was it anyway always where he was never
no not once ever seeing himself an eyeball speaks

[CovenantJr]

Well, it looks like we've lost my award-winning post in this topic. I hope you all remember what I said

[I'm Murrin]

I remember nothing.

Damn, three pages of good discussion matter lost....

[matrixman]

AARGH! We lost Fist's great big post, too!

[Worm of Despite]

May the awesomeness that was this thread before the timewarp R.I.P.

[I'm Murrin]

Thanks to 'Work Offline' and Cut & Paste, I present to you Page 3 of this topic - minus a few smilies. Enjoy. Sorry I couldn't find the rest - it might be on the laptop. And yes, look to the bottom and you will find Fist's enormous posting.

To me that is a very shallow definition of significance.

In the large terms of the world... I'm looking at the whole scale... Of course we are all significant in our ways. But not anything large.. here's a pie: *Stuffs a pie in Alan's mouth*

If you think in those terms, Darth - each person is insignificant compared to the whole race - then you might as well consider that the human race is insignificant. Everything that happens in this galaxy is insignificant in terms of the whole universe. The universe - our entire reality, in fact - could be insignificant compared to the full extant of existence.
No-one, and nothing, is important in this way of thinking - but importance is subjective. You do not judge something's importance on how it affects the whole, but on how it affects yourself.

['Arg.. thread hijacked' smilie] (not that I object to this stimulating discussion on significance)

Death is to be feared, somewhat, if the limit of your self-perception is the surface of your skin. Really, though, that's the smallest part of who you are. The memory of your identity will last somewhat longer, but even when that fades, the results of even your most minute actions will continue in the system forever. In this sense, at least, the information of your life can never be lost.

I understand what you are saying here, and agree that some comfort can be taken from this fact - certainly, enough comfort to alleviate all fear for those who believe something will follow after their deaths - but for those without that belief, I do not believe it is anyway near enough to outweigh that visceral fear of death that is within us all.

In the large terms of the world... I'm looking at the whole scale... Of course we are all significant in our ways. But not anything large..

I think all people are significant. We all affect everyone we come into contact with in some way. You smile at someone in the queue at the supermarket, and that causes them to let someone out of a junction as they drive home, and that small act of consideration is enough to stop the other driver taking his own life that night. The fact that you will never know how you affect people is neither here nor there. To demand recognition for your significance is shallow. We all affect many people every day, so the cumulative effect is massive.

I think you're very right... I just realised how much of ass I am for thinking that way... I'm sorry. However... ...

No don't be sorry, revan. You shouldnt feel sorry for your own view on things. It ultimately boiled down to a debate on definition.

yeah... but I seem like such a gimp when reeading.

If Oblivion is all that there is,
we can take comfort from the fact that we'll never know [laugh smilie]

Be Safe
--Avatar

Back in the early days of computer modeling, a weather researcher was running a model of a weather system - certain defined parameters for regional temperatures, landscape, correolis effect, and so forth. The data was just raw numbers which was then interpreted. Anyhow, the guy was running the program with one set of parameters. He wanted to repeat the test with the same parameters, but he had to stop it about halfway through. Saving himself some time, he reentered all the data at the point where he stopped, but left off at the ten thousandth place (one ten thousandth being an insignificant amount which he assumed would be absorbed by the vast amount of other information). When he came back and checked the data the next morning, the results were drastically different than the last time he ran it. Butterfly effect, chaos theory, and so forth.

So sure, your life might appear small an puny in the grand scale of things, but in a closed system like our world over time, the puny things cause drastic changes. No man is unimportant, and we all live forever so long as the system reminas intact.

No man is an island, entire of itself
every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main
if a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were,
as well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were
any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind
and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls
it tolls for thee.
-- John Donne

(quotes Avatar)

Excellent post! How right you are

(quotes Syl)

Another great post by you Caer. And some points.

It seems Lord Revan is being criticized for being pessimistic. Is pessimism wrong? Is doubt wrong? Maybe we just entertain the notion of individual "significance" because this comfortable illusion makes mundane everyday human existence seem more romantic and heroic than it really is. I don't know. Just as I don't really know what happens after death, though you could say my own "delusion" is that I think nothing happens. You live, then you die.

It's nice to talk about what sort of influence the example of your life may set for future generations, but it doesn't really change my feelings in the face of imminent death, which is what Murrin was asking about.

IMO, no one should look for the "importance" in life. It should be more like finding what is important in life to YOU.

Personally, I have found no way of telling whether or not human beings really matter--period. I have no idea whether we're some blessed child of God or viruses with shoes.

That's not the point, though. The point is that there is one reality: that you exist. The best you can do with that fact is to enjoy it, make the most of it. Agonizing over "what does it all mean" does not fall into the "enjoy it" category or the "make the most of it" category, IMO.

I think you're very right... I just realised how much of ass I am for thinking that way... I'm sorry. However... ...

I wasn't trying to critcise you, Darth, and I read your opinions with interest. Just trying to put my spin on things (hug smilie)

(quotes Matrixman)

That's the point I was getting at...

(quotes CovJr)

You weren't? Why not? What's wrong? heh, you're an outsider on the Watch Roger.

Sorry for the length of this post, folks. But I have all of this stuff on a website, so it's real easy to copy & paste it for such occasions. I'm gonna throw a whole lot of stuff into this.

(quotes Matrixman)

You're right. But the conversation took a turn, as they often do here. Yes, I'll argue against Darth's (former) pessimism. In the final analysis, my argument is that our lives are as important as anything else is. Here's my definition of the universe:

Me, you, the sun, Pluto, Jupiter and its moons, the Milky Way galaxy, the star Rigel, the solar winds, the free hydrogen atoms everywhere between the stars, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.

Notice that you are part of the definition of the universe. In other words, if you never existed, the universe would be defined differently! You are just as much a part of this universe as any galaxy is. Sure, it might exist without any of us, or any star or galaxy or black hole. But it would not be the universe that we know. We are all part of the definition.

Nor is the universe defined only by this moment. You are not defined by the single instant that you are experiencing right now. Every moment of your entire lifespan must be considered as part of the definition of you. Should your entire childhood be ignored when saying who you are? Same goes for the universe. In 1,000,000,000,000,000 years, you are still a part of the definition of the universe.

And what's more, in the eyes of the unimaginably gigantic universe, the Andromeda galaxy is not much bigger than you are. Basically, you are equal to a galaxy. Not bad.

In A Wizard of Earthsea, Urlula K. Le Guin puts it this way. After Ged, the wizard, explains to a girl that light is a great power, she asks, if it is not a secret, what other great powers there are.

"It is no secret. All power is one in source and end, I think. Years and distances, stars and candles, water and wind and wizardry, the craft in a man's hand and the wisdom in a tree's root: they all arise together. My name, and yours, and the true name of the sun, or a spring of water, or an unborn child, all are syllables of the great word that is very slowly spoken by the shining of the stars. There is no other power. No other name."

Remember the legend of ak-Haru Kenaustin Ardenol?

"It is said that he has mastered all skill and prowess that we desire, all restraint and calm, and has become perfection. Passion and mastery like unto the poised grandeur of mountains."

This goes to the beauty of the person, because of the dedication and purity he gave toward his goals. His dedication and purity are as admirable as a mountain's beauty. It also goes to the fact that a person is no smaller, in the grand scheme of things, than a mountain.

Darth's pessimism said (note the past-tense ) that we are not important in the grand scheme of things. I say that we are as important as anything else, and I'm glad to see Darth beginning to come around. I do not think people can be as happy feeling the way he was. And I've yet to hear a convincing reason to reject happiness. So rather than look at it the one way, try the other. It's just as Bernard said in Northern Exposure:

"Your existence has no meaning. None at all. And if you don’t come to grips with that, you’re gonna continue to lead a incomplete, unfulfilled, totally neurotic life. Now normally, I’m loathe to give advice, but, if I were you, I’d learn how to sit still; to face the abyss; to embrace it; to do nothing."

Now, does any of all that address Murrin's question at all? It does for me. I also find the thought of oblivion to be, shall we say, a bit unsettling at times. But I sidestep the issue by concentrating on the stuff in this post. There's SO much out there - and in us - stuff that folks like SRD, Le Guin, and Zindell have expressed brilliantly. And the thrill of it all is enough to drown out the oblivion problem.


OK, one final quote. This is the pessimistic view, said better than I've ever heard it. Ya want dark? I've posted it before, and here it is again! Arguably, the best thing that the world of comic books has ever produced is a twelve-issue series called Watchmen, written by Alan Moore. In it is a character named Rorschach. We learn his origin in issue #6. He was trying to rescue a little girl who had been kidnapped. When he found the kidnapper’s house, he found out that the girl had been killed, butchered, and fed to the dogs. Rorschach handcuffed the man to a pipe, and set the house on fire. He left a saw with the man, but told him that he’d never be able to cut through the cuffs in time. Implying that, if he wanted to live, he’d have to cut his own hand off. Then he went outside to watch the scene. Here's how he describes that moment:

Stood in firelight, sweltering. Blood stain on chest like map of violent new continent. Felt cleansed. Felt dark planet turn under my feet and knew what cats know that makes them scream like babies in night. Looked at sky through smoke heavy with human fat and God was not there. The cold, suffocating dark goes on forever, and we are alone. Live our lives, lacking anything better to do. Devise reason later. Born from oblivion, bear children, hellbound as ourselves, go into oblivion. There is nothing else. Existence is random. Has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long. No meaning save what we choose to impose. This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It's us. Only us. Streets stank of fire. The void breathed hard on my heart, turning its illusions to ice, shattering them. Was reborn then, free to scrawl own design on this morally blank world. Was Rorschach.

[I'm Murrin]

Page 4!!!!!!!!!11111oneoneone

WHOA!! Excellent post Fist!























Maybe someday I'll read it.

Darth, I actually read it, and it's still an excellent post. I admit I could have done without the final musings of a comic book vigilante, which seems to try to cancel out all the rest that Fist so wonderfully said. But if one must look at only one life, at least let it be a life the size of a universe.

I do not think people can be as happy feeling the way he was. And I've yet to hear a convincing reason to reject happiness.

There's SO much out there - and in us - stuff that folks like SRD, Le Guin, and Zindell have expressed brilliantly. And the thrill of it all is enough to drown out the oblivion problem.

Very well said, Mr. Faith. As I have said before, I believe there is much out there, and in us, that many of us have never seen, but it's the right of each person to choose what to look at. So for heaven's sake, choose happiness. Your eternal impact on life, or the universe, will be so much greater that way.

I one for lookl forward to the death of this life. My contributions have almost depleted for now , and I think my real contributions will come after this cycle.
I think there is nothing to fear of death , it sure has to be a hell of a lot less torturous than life.

But hey it is a moot point. For we are not really here at all. this is just one level of mental awareness that we are sharing, and believe to be a real existence. For those of us who meet again on a higher plane, there we will discuss the other possibilities of "life" and death.

Thank you so much for reading this, it just perpetuates the influence I have made during this cycle.

My contributions have almost depleted for now , and I think my real contributions will come after this cycle.

Just redefine "contributions," TRC, and you will make another start. As Fist redefined "significance". This applies to many of us.

I have influenced many "lives " on many different levels. My actions that influence anothers thoughts or ideas , or possibly actions. are my consideration of contributions. As I said I have almost finished what I think are worthwhile contribs for this "life" and after I feel I have done so, I shall move on, and start anew.

(quotes end of Fist's Enormous Posting)

And that is why the character of Rorschach resonated so deeply with me.

My current signature is a quote used in Watchmen. Works for me.

I admit I could have done without the final musings of a comic book vigilante, which seems to try to cancel out all the rest that Fist so wonderfully said.

Well, I didn't intend to do that! I just think it's the best wording of that pessemistic pov I've ever heard. You know, if you ever want to wallow in the depths, Rorschach'll help you get there!!

But although I absolutely agree that "existence is random - has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it for too long - no meaning save what we choose to impose," I prefer to think of it as "existence is random - has whatever pattern we choose to see in it."

The human mind is like that, agreed. Look at how we see order in chaos. Anyone remember the Face on Mars?
Sometimes I think personality is like that. We assign an overall 'theme' to someone's actions and we do it with our memories. No one can remember anything, much less take in the chaos of experience; far better to 'personify' existence. However, I have great difficulty finding who I am; it seems I am a dynamic individual - driven by the chaos of events.

I know what I want to say but I can't express it very well, sorry if my meaning is unclear, I'll do my best:

We see order in the chaos because there is 'order' in the 'chaos'. Everything may be random, but randomness is only random as long as you can't see what is causing the things to happen. Everything happens as a result of something else, every action has an equal and opposite reaction, this means that every person, every action, every reaction, every thought, every breath we take has infinite importance.
We sometimes see 'order' because there are some actions and reactions that we understand.

Yes, but it is imporssible to see the billions of variables that give rise to chaos.

That's why most of it looks random to us

Oh i know, I was agreeing with you. The only true randomness occurs at a quantum level.

Righto, sorry

[Loredoctor]

One of my excellent responses to Darth's points is not there!

[[Syl]]

Not that I wouldn't love to take the credit, but that huge post is Fist's.

[I'm Murrin]

Gah, sorry, don't know how I could've messed that up...

[I'm Murrin]

One of my excellent responses to Darth's points is not there!

Sorry, this is all I had. Most of the Darth stuff was on page 2.

[Loredoctor]

Thanks Murrin.

[CovenantJr]

Yeah, nice job...especially re-posting this one:

WHOA!! Excellent post Fist!























Maybe someday I'll read it.

[Loredoctor]

Oh darth . . . how you amuse us






















Not.