Ur-vile breeding dens: a question in reason

[Reisheiruhime]

Ur-viles have breeding dens. Loric made 'em all impotent. Why do they have "breeding" dens, if they can't do anything?????

Not my idea, I swear. Sum1 wanted to know, and now I do too.

[dlbpharmd]

Didn't Loric fight against the Viles (hence his name, Vilesilencer?)

IIRC, the progression was Viles, then Demondim, then the Ur-Viles and Waynhim.

[matrixman]

It was actually the Viles that Loric specifically made impotent. After the Viles came the Demondim, and after the Demondim came the ur-viles and Waynhim (the Demondim-spawn).

As for the question of the breeding dens, I think it's just a misunderstanding of what SRD was saying. Breeding is simply the act itself of producing, independent of whether that act is "natural" or "artificial." Yes, we normally think of breeding as the bearing of offspring through mating. But it can also mean "the production of animals or plants by hybridization, inbreeding, or other methods of reproduction."

In The Wounded Land, Hamako explains to Covenant:

They[the Waynhim] were made--as the ur-viles were made--by deliberate act in the breeding dens of the Demondim. And the Demondim were themselves formed by lore rather than blood from the Viles who went before them.

Thus the Viles, even though they were rendered impotent by Loric, still bred the Demondim. They simply bred or "made" the Demondim from "lore rather than blood." So it's artificial breeding, but breeding nonetheless.

The ur-viles are merely continuing the, uh, proud tradition of their makers with their own breeding dens.

[Ryzel]

I always thought that what was meant was that the Viles were a real menace to the Land at some point. Maybe through their numbers, and that Loric Vilesilencer exterminated most of them, thus reducing their power.

[dlbpharmd]

MM is right on target - I would add that the after the jherrin were redeemed by Foamfollower, they regained the ability to produce children through mating, and re-named themselves the sur-jherrin.

[matrixman]

Thanks, dlbpharmd.

Good point, Ryzel. Now that I think about it, if the Viles were able to continue their breeding in another form despite Loric's making them impotent, then his deed was in vain.

Loric vs. the Viles: that would be another epic struggle from the ancient history of the Land I'd love to read about. I can picture Loric and his dazzling krill vs. the dark lore of the Viles...awesome!

[Ryzel]

Good point, Ryzel. Now that I think about it, if the Viles were able to continue their breeding in another form despite Loric's making them impotent, then his deed was in vain.

I would not necessarily say that. After all if Loric's work enabled the Old Lords to establish unchallenged dominion over the upper Land for all the millennia up to the Ritual of Desecration then I would consider that quite useful. And the Demondim and the Ur-Viles were mostly confined to Mount Thunder even in the time of the New Lords, it might be that something Loric did made it much more difficult for them to propagate too.

[Baradakas]

Also keep in mind, that thier inability to propogate themselves may have resulted in exactly what Loric wanted. I.E., no more Viles!!!

[Aunflin]

Also keep in mind, that thier inability to propogate themselves may have resulted in exactly what Loric wanted. I.E., no more Viles!!!

I've always wondered what the Viles did that was so horrible?

[UrLord]

Well...think about it...they're....Vile...

ISN'T THAT ENOUGH?!

[Myste]

I've always wondered what the Viles did that was so horrible?

That's an interesting question. Apart from being so vile, what was it that they did to require Loric to battle them? I always had the sense that they were a sort of amoral, power-hungry group of creatures who didn't particularly hate anything; they just didn't care. They just wanted more knowledge, more lore, and didn't care how they got it. You can see then, that Loric would have to stop them, or they'd overrun the land with their conscienceless pursuit of power, destorying humanity and anything else that got in their way. But I'm not sure they were evil per se.

Of course, I could be completely wrong, and forgetting something important somewhere. Anyone have any other ideas, quotes, or anything?

[Variol Farseer]

I always had the sense that they were a sort of amoral, power-hungry group of creatures who didn't particularly hate anything; they just didn't care. They just wanted more knowledge, more lore, and didn't care how they got it. You can see then, that Loric would have to stop them, or they'd overrun the land with their conscienceless pursuit of power, destorying humanity and anything else that got in their way. But I'm not sure they were evil per se.

If overrunning and destroying everything that gets in your way, and pursuing power at all costs, and having no conscience, isn't evil, then for what, pray tell, do you reserve the word 'evil'?

[Myste]

If overrunning and destroying everything that gets in your way, and pursuing power at all costs, and having no conscience, isn't evil, then for what, pray tell, do you reserve the word 'evil'?

The Viles were pursuing the survival of their species in the manner to which they had evolved. I don't think that constitutes evil. It probably seemed that way to the people being overrun and destroyed, but I don't know if it was objectively Evil.

I've been working on this one, actually, for a post in the "Pitch's idea" thread in the TC forum. I'll pm you when I've got my thoughts worked out. For the nonce, however, I'll say that I'm genuinely uncertain if a culture can be evil. Individuals can be evil, or at the very least do evil things, but I'm not certain if the Vile culture itself is evil.

Having said that, there is another question that might be asked: Assuming for the moment that the Vile culture is itself evil (i.e., evil independent of the actions of its members) does it necessarily follow that it is invalid? And another question: Could Loric's defeat of the Viles be considered genocide, and if so, was it justified?

[Variol Farseer]

The Viles were pursuing the survival of their species in the manner to which they had evolved. I don't think that constitutes evil. It probably seemed that way to the people being overrun and destroyed, but I don't know if it was objectively Evil.

Then you should have no trouble at all with the way the American settlers disposed of the Indians. It's just the way their culture had evolved, isn't it?

Leaving analogies aside, please bear in mind that the Viles were not 'pursuing the survival of their species' at all. They were doing a deliberate and colossal exercise in eugenics, trying to create a superior species to succeed them. The Demondim were designed to behave the way they did. In my books, that counts as monstrously evil: every bit as evil as Hitler's attempt to create a race of 'Aryan supermen' by controlled breeding of Germans and extermination of everyone else.

Having said that, there is another question that might be asked: Assuming for the moment that the Vile culture is itself evil (i.e., evil independent of the actions of its members) does it necessarily follow that it is invalid? And another question: Could Loric's defeat of the Viles be considered genocide, and if so, was it justified?

We don't have enough information about what Loric did to the Viles. We are told, as a matter of fact, that he delivered the Land from the first great peril of the ur-viles. The Demondim breeding program had already reached that stage, and I wouldn't be surprised to discover that the Viles were moribund by then. Why would they go on surviving when their allegedly superior successors were already in existence?

As for 'invalid': That's a meaningless question without specific terms of reference. If the Demondim breeding program was evil in itself (as I believe), then you could say it was 'morally invalid'; but clearly it was not logically or practically invalid, because in that case it wouldn't have worked at all. Since it worked, it was 'valid' according to the assumptions the Viles subscribed to; and the only objection to those assumptions is on ethical grounds.

C.S. Lewis discusses the moral ramifications of this kind of eugenic program in The Abolition of Man, which I highly recommend.

[CovenantJr]

Then you should have no trouble at all with the way the American settlers disposed of the Indians. It's just the way their culture had evolved, isn't it?

Yes, it is. Of course I believe it was wrong, but people then didn't see things the way we do now. I can tell you from experience that once you accept everyone is living the best way they know how, everything becomes far less stressful. I usually apply that in a day-to-day context, but I think it's relevant here too. Of course I don't approve of the settlers' conquest of America, but they were forging the best path they could in a rapidly changing world.

Anyway, that was mostly off topic, so I'll leave it there.

[Myste]

The Viles were pursuing the survival of their species in the manner to which they had evolved. I don't think that constitutes evil. It probably seemed that way to the people being overrun and destroyed, but I don't know if it was objectively Evil.

Then you should have no trouble at all with the way the American settlers disposed of the Indians. It's just the way their culture had evolved, isn't it?

I really don't know what to say to this, except that I intended the statements you've quoted as hypotheses, as exercises in theory. Obviously, I failed to make that clear, as you appear to be accusing me of approving genocide.

I was trying to ask questions about the Viles in terms of evolutionary theory and natural selection. When it comes to real life, the questions become extremely complex; in terms of natural selection, might makes right, big fish eats little fish, strong fish eats weak fish, and so on. Humanity has developed so many ways of eating the little fish that it's impossible to say whether we've mastered natural selection itself, or set ourselves up for disaster. Discussing the Viles in terms of the world Donaldson set them in is very different, and I agree that we should set all analogies aside.

Assuming, for the moment, that the Viles are a species of creature separate from that of Homo sapiens, then it seems to me that as a species, they have the right to survive. The methods they use are evil, and if evil methods are the only way in which they propagate, then it is undoubtedly better for every other species if they are prevented from doing so. If the Viles, once prevented from one method of species propagation, are able to either evolve new methods, or think up nicer ones, then as a species they might have been allowed to continue. Obviously, they were unable to evolve physiologically, and their minds weren't flexible enough to allow them to come up with a new idea, so their species died out or was destroyed.

I'll keep an eye out for The Abolotion of Man; thanks for the recommendation.