Should SRD write a pre-history, like, say, The Silmarillion?

[Mick Axbrewder]

I've been reading the Silmarillion for the first time, and it's really neat to see Middle Earth's prehistory. I'm wondering what the prehistory of The Land would look like.

The birth of the Haruchai. Giants learning to sail. Earthpower before the Lords. The One Forest.

And what was it like to hang out with the old Lords?

[Worm of Despite]

It'd be very interesting, but for some this is bad news: SRD said in an old interview that he’d never do it. *Shrug*

But I understand that completely. I mean--obviously, if his heart's not into writing it, and he thinks it's not even worth thinking about, then it'll never be worth reading.

[duchess of malfi]

I would love it if Donaldson were to write such a work, but Lord Foul is entirely right. I have also seen those interviews.

[Lord Mhoram]

I would be thrilled if there were one on the Old Lords!

[dukkha]

Perhaps SRD thinks that it would be boring.....but I think he could do some really interesting stuff with this. For example, I would not want to be without the stuff we learn about the Haruchai in Gilden-Fire, even though it perhaps isn't crucial for the main themes of the trilogy.

For me, it would be fascinating to get a novel on Kevin - how he became so knowledgeable and powerful. What the Land was like in those times. Stuff like that.

[amanibhavam]

Yeah, but the Silmarillion was not a prequel: Tolkien wrote it first, the LotR covers just a very small part of ME history

[ÐragonForever]

I'd be more interested in the old <i>old</i> history - from Berek's time and before, the days of the One Forest and how the Appointed Kastenessen became the Colossus of the Fall, stories about Doriender Corishev's nation, and Berek's King and Queen and how they warred.

I don't see why these and others, such as stories of the other Old Lords, couldn't make their way into a collection of short stories.

[I'm Murrin]

Sorry, but wasn't Kastenessen used to stop a 'great fire in the North'? I thought it was another Chosen who bacame the Collosus...

[Celebel Manabrimbor]

I remember reading in an interview with SRD that his writing is story-driven. That would mean that he wouldn't be interested in writing short stories, Silmarillion-style, just to fill in background. I love the idea of writing about ANCIENT history, like the height of Doriendor Corishev, but don't think its going to happen

[Worm of Despite]

I remember reading in an interview with SRD that his writing is story-driven.

Exactly!

It's about Covenant's journey--and more importantly . . .his moral journey. Most all the stories from the Land's ancient past have something to do with Covenant's mental struggles and even Linden's. How many times did we hear the Ritual of Desecration drug back up just to be compared to something that was ongoing in the First/Second Chronicles? Covenant said, "I don't want to be another Kevin", or something like that, I believe. Or maybe the narration said it. Anyway, the Land's past is not there to really add a richness but its function is to relate with the story and the psychology of the characters. That's my guess, anyway.

As for Tolkien and his Silmarillion, well, we gotta remember that Tolkien wrote his books as a hobby, as a personal fascination. He even pointed out in his intro to LOTR that he wrote it for linguistic purposes and for his own personal satisfaction. Personal, personal! He didn't think folks would even like LOTR that much! He said LOTR was mainly to prove a point in one of his 1938 lectures that the world still needed a fantasy/myth. Donaldson didn't write the Chronicles with those reasons in mind, I think, despite that LOTR heavily influenced him.

By the way, kids, you don't have to eat EVERY bite of your Easter feast. *Tries to stand but falls to one side* UGH!!

[dukkha]

I remember reading in an interview with SRD that his writing is story-driven.

Exactly!

It's about Covenant's journey--and more importantly . . .his moral journey. Most all the stories from the Land's ancient past have something to do with Covenant's mental struggles and even Linden's. How many times did we hear the Ritual of Desecration drug back up just to be compared to something that was ongoing in the First/Second Chronicles? Covenant said, "I don't want to be another Kevin", or something like that, I believe. Or maybe the narration said it. Anyway, the Land's past is not there to really add a richness but its function is to relate with the story and the psychology of the characters. That's my guess, anyway.

Don't you think there are interesting stories to tell pre-Covenant? Didn't people in The Land face moral and spiritual challenges? I definitely think there are stories there. SRD may not be interested in them; this is true. But in the Chronicles he created a world where moral dilemmas are made plain. Not simpler; as opposed to Tolkien, where it's usually pretty easy to distinguish good and evil, in SRD seemingly good actions can lead to evil ends and vice versa. I think that there is a lot to explore in this world.

Another reason that hasn't come up - SRD likes the connection between The Land and our world. In pre-Covenant history this connection doesn't exist, so the issue of "unbelief", or whether Foul is really an externalization of TC, and the Ravers of LA, becomes irrelevant.

[Cord Hurn]

Another reason that hasn't come up - SRD likes the connection between The Land and our world. In pre-Covenant history this connection doesn't exist, so the issue of "unbelief", or whether Foul is really an externalization of TC, and the Ravers of LA, becomes irrelevant.

This is an old thread, I know, but dukkha's point is a good one: if SRD doesn't feel the magic in writing such a story, the magic in reading it won't be there. It would sell well, of course--at least at first.

[sgt.null]

so he can farm it out to another author with some guidelines? like the Doctor Who universe?

[Cord Hurn]

so he can farm it out to another author with some guidelines? like the Doctor Who universe?

I'm not sure SRD is inclined to do that, Sarge, but if he should do so it would be a great way to make money off his creation w/o having to do so much work. Heck, I never thought George Lucas would sell off Star Wars, so it seems plausible that this could happen, too.

[Vraith]

so he can farm it out to another author with some guidelines? like the Doctor Who universe?

I'm not sure SRD is inclined to do that, Sarge, but if he should do so it would be a great way to make money off his creation w/o having to do so much work. Heck, I never thought George Lucas would sell off Star Wars, so it seems plausible that this could happen, too.

I'm pretty sure he said in the GI he'd never do such a thing.
He might even have said that he had no plans for someone else to finish the LC's if he happened to die before it was finished.

He could change his mind, people do...but I'd guess not.

There are probably some fun/interesting stories that could be done about the past.
But I don't think any important books.
They'd end up, intentionally or not, being much more traditional fantasy/adventure.
I don't think that's a good thing.

[michaelm]

Yeah, but the Silmarillion was not a prequel: Tolkien wrote it first, the LotR covers just a very small part of ME history

I don't know he so much wrote it as much as his son compiled it from notes that Tolkien wrote while composing his better known two works.

Didn't Christopher Tolkien admit a couple of years ago that he did in fact construct entire stories from back of a napkin notes (when he had denied that he did for years)?

[Zarathustra]

Yeah, but the Silmarillion was not a prequel: Tolkien wrote it first, the LotR covers just a very small part of ME history

I don't know he so much wrote it as much as his son compiled it from notes that Tolkien wrote while composing his better known two works.

Didn't Christopher Tolkien admit a couple of years ago that he did in fact construct entire stories from back of a napkin notes (when he had denied that he did for years)?

Dude, Tolkien most certainly wrote the Silmarillion. It wasn't just some notes. His total output far exceeds what ended up in the published Silmarillion. He worked on it nearly his entire life. It did indeed predate the Lord of the Rings, and even The Hobbit. It was one of the first things he wrote. While it's true that he worked on it (some) while composing LOTR, this is only because he was constantly revising it. He actually offered the Silmarillon to his publishers after The Hobbit was a hit, because he wasn't sure about a sequel to The Hobbit, and he already had this other novel he'd been working on for years. His publishers turned it down, and asked for a sequel.

I don't know where you got your info about the napkin, but the history of Tolkien's writings are well documented in numerous volumes of the History of Middle Earth, in which all the rough drafts of his work are explored in detail.

[Orlion]

Yeah, but the Silmarillion was not a prequel: Tolkien wrote it first, the LotR covers just a very small part of ME history

I don't know he so much wrote it as much as his son compiled it from notes that Tolkien wrote while composing his better known two works.

Didn't Christopher Tolkien admit a couple of years ago that he did in fact construct entire stories from back of a napkin notes (when he had denied that he did for years)?

Dude, Tolkien most certainly wrote the Silmarillion. It wasn't just some notes. His total output far exceeds what ended up in the published Silmarillion. He worked on it nearly his entire life. It did indeed predate the Lord of the Rings, and even The Hobbit. It was one of the first things he wrote. While it's true that he worked on it (some) while composing LOTR, this is only because he was constantly revising it. He actually offered the Silmarillon to his publishers after The Hobbit was a hit, because he wasn't sure about a sequel to The Hobbit, and he already had this other novel he'd been working on for years. His publishers turned it down, and asked for a sequel.

I don't know where you got your info about the napkin, but the history of Tolkien's writings are well documented in numerous volumes of the History of Middle Earth, in which all the rough drafts of his work are explored in detail.

That's the thing, they were drafts in various stages of completion. Christopher T. has noted that he had the habit of starting over again when he didn't like how his writing was turning out. As a result, we have a bunch of writing, maybe an outline, that his son then went through to try and edit... and edit he did, and added his own words to try to construct a coherent story.

[michaelm]

I'm not saying that he didn't write it, but that it didn't exist in story format for the most part. I wish I could find the interview but my Google-fu seems to have escaped me. Christopher Tolkien elaborated on what he had to work with, which was some complete stories, all of the central stories outlined to varying lengths of completion, and various scraps of paper and notes that were partial but belonged within the wider narrative that was described.

There certainly had been criticism of his editorial input and he denied that he did more than add a few touches here and there, but in later years he detailed the state of the legacy he inherited.

I'll try to find the interview, because his description of what he had is more in line with what was suggested that he had done i.e. put it all in order and provided some of the narrative himself where the original notes were lacking in detail.

He may have offered the Silmarillion as a sequel, but as you say, he was still working on it, and apparently was still writing within a few weeks of his death.

[wayfriend]

Yeah, but the Silmarillion was not a prequel: Tolkien wrote it first, the LotR covers just a very small part of ME history

I don't know he so much wrote it as much as his son compiled it from notes that Tolkien wrote while composing his better known two works.

Didn't Christopher Tolkien admit a couple of years ago that he did in fact construct entire stories from back of a napkin notes (when he had denied that he did for years)?

CJRT collected JRRT's writings, which were in various forms: revised drafts, first drafts, sketches, and notes. He then selected some of these, and re-wrote those he selected to the degree necessary, to make them comprehensible and consistent and complete, while trying to be as faithful to his father's intentions as possible.

There was no specific narrative called "The Silmarillion". "The Silmarillion" was the name of a theorhetical text of Middle Earth "history". What it contained varied over the years, and parts were rewritten by JRRT many times. CJRT in essence created the first published version of _a_ "The Silmarillion". It was probably different than the "The Silarillion" his father tried to publish decades earlier. CJRT selected what he thought were the most complete parts of this history; more incomplete works were later published under such titles as "Unfinished Tales".

There is nothing else like "The Silmarillion" in existence. But as a work it is fair to say it was designed by JRRT, and began by JRRT, but edited and completed by CJRT.

And, yes, CJRT admitted to having to guess on several points. And yes, at least one chapter, "Of the Ruin of Doriath", was created practically from scratch. But this wasn't CJRT's attempt to expand the legendarium with his own works - this was trying to spackle in some holes that JRRT never addressed, but which CJRT thought necessary to create a narrative whole. CJRT also made some changes to make things consistent with LOTR when possible; JRRT often found himself rewriting bits for the same reason, or to make older pieces consistent with newer ones - the Silmarillion was always a Work In Progress.