Creator + Arch of Time = Problem

[ÐragonForever]

Someone I know, who's recently been reading the 1st Chron (she hasn't read the 2nd) asked me this, and I thought it was a very good question. Yes, I organised it a bit to be more logical, flesh out some details, and stuff.


As has been stated numerous times in the books, the Creator of the Land can't reach through the Arch of Time to affect the universe. I also recall (can't remember where it was stated, though) that all of creation is under the Arch.

However, he clearly touched the world at least twice, in the interview at the end of TPTP and as the man in the ochre robe at the start of TWL. Each of these was in the real world. Yet we know that the Land and the Creator aren't complete schizophrenic inventions of Covenant's, because Linden got drawn up in it, and Covenant recovered at the end of TPTP, etc.

So how did the Creator reach the real world, without breaking the Arch of Time?

As I see it, there are only two ways.


One instinctively seems nonsensical to me, and that's that the real world is on the other side of the Arch of Time from the Land.

This could go towards explaining the difficulties of summoning from one place to the other - Covenant's summonings to the Land, and those cultists' summoning of Foul to the real world - requiring penetrating the Arch.


The other is that the real world isn't in the same universe (or region of creation, if you like). Thus the Land's creator isn't the real world's creator, and the real world still isn't under the Arch of Time. This is reinforced by his saying at the end of TPTP, "<u>Your</u> world runs by Law, as does <u>mine</u>. ... You have retrieved <u>my</u> Earth from the brink of dissolution."

However, this means that there is more than one Creator!


Problems:
- Why did breaking the Law of Death make summoning Covenant to the Land easier?
- How could the Sunbane in the Land threaten the real world?

Comments welcome.

Also edit: this might (or might not!) have been similar to fightingmyinstincts' one. Read at your peril.

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Edit: ditched a bit about the Worm of the World's End, because I see now that it appeared in a thread that's less than a week old. :\ That'll teach me to read threads more often.

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Finally, isn't this an awesome smiley?

[CovenantJr]

I favour the thoery that the Arch of Time encompasses the Land and it's earth, but our world is outside the Arch, possibly within it's own Arch, possibly with it's own Creator, or possibly playing by different rules entirely. That is how the Creator was able to perform the actions you mentioned, IMO. When he appeared as the old man in the ochre robe, he was in our world, so he didn't have to pass through the Arch. When he spoke to TC at the end of TPTP, TC had already departed the Land and was on his way back to our world, so again the Arch remained intact.

[duchess of malfi]

I've always thought that our world and the world of the Land are the products of two seperate creations, and operate under different sets of laws.

[caamora]

I always thought that the world that the Land belonged to was in a different plane of existence - separate from ours and the ARch of Time encompasses it. The creator could not touch IT. He had no problem operating in our world but was certainly not the creator of our world. But, then again, did he really do that much in our world? He guided TC towards the Land - whether he really chose him or not, I don't know. I think rather that LF "chose" TC and the creator just checked him out to see what kind of man TC was - and was satisfied with what he saw.

Anyway, I always felt that they were two different worlds.

[caamora]

I always thought that the world that the Land belonged to was in a different plane of existence - separate from ours and the ARch of Time encompasses it. The creator could not touch IT. He had no problem operating in our world but was certainly not the creator of our world. But, then again, did he really do that much in our world? He guided TC towards the Land - whether he really chose him or not, I don't know. I think rather that LF "chose" TC and the creator just checked him out to see what kind of man TC was - and was satisfied with what he saw.

Anyway, I always felt that they were two different worlds.

[Ryzel]

What makes you think that the Sun-bane would threaten "our" world?

Anyway I think it is a much greater problem that LF was capable of reaching through the AoT to our world in the 2. chronicles.

[ÐragonForever]

What makes you think that the Sun-bane would threaten "our" world?

Sentences like this, from the end of WGW:
"...And beyond this fertility lurked rain and pestilence and desert in erratic sequence, ... until the foundations of the Land crumbled. Then the Sunbane would be free to spread.
Out to the rest of the Earth."

I suppose that I may be getting a little confused by the use of "Earth" to refer the real world or the Land's world including Bhrathairealm, Elemesnedene etc. :\


And I got a second-hand paperback copy of WGW at a neighbour's garage sale a while ago for less than a dollar, and I opened it just now for the first time (I already had another copy of WGW) and found it's signed/dedicated by SRD! Blimey!

[danlo]

That's def authentic--xact same signature in my copy of TIW that Tamara bought me 4 2 dollars! The same Law that made it ezier 2 summon in the last 3 books also made it ezier 4 Lord Foul's influence 2 b felt in our world, when he took over "the followers" and drove Joan mad. This mental bondage xhausted Foul of alot of energy 2 begin w/...What was REAL freaky is his face appearing in the fire...

It probably cost the Creator a great deal of energy 2, 2 appear in our world. I agree w/caam I c the Land's world on a completely detacted dimensional plane, God has this Universe, the Creator has his...the greatest gift the Creator ever gave TC, imho, is breaking in2 the thin connection btween both worlds 2 communicate w/him. Will the Wurm awaken 2 break that plane carrying pestilence 2 our world? (As u can tell I just watched The 10 Commandments, "...and He spoke unto them..." er, something )

[fightingmyinstincts]

Yeah, I made a post like this...

I think the real world has a different creator or was created waaaayy separately.

I think that TC was easier to summon after the LoD was broken b/c he was nearly dead...and the dead of the Land and the dead of our world and the dead of everywhere all go to the same place, right? Or else, why would LA raise "grim shades" in Andelain? Anyway, I think it says that somewhere, like Mhoram thinks it or whatever, that he was easy to summon b/c he was nearly deadl. He thinks it with grief. I love Mhoram.

As I've stated before, I think it's plausible that the Creator of the Land inhabits a plane w/ a whole bunch of beings like Himself. LF, the "bitter brother or son of his heart" was just one. LF is NOT the creator's inner self-despite or any other kind of personalised despiser, he's a separate being. Or as a devil's advocate here, he isn't, and that's why he can't be destroyed...but you couldn't lock a part of yourself away behind an arch if you can't reach through it, now can you?

[[Syl]]

Matches my copy of WGW as well (unfortunately it cost me $40 at alibris.com).

My take in a nutshell: The AoT encompasses the world (dimension? universe?) of the Land only. The Creator can look in, but his hand is too big/powerful/clumsy... won't fit, whatever. However, he's free to manipulate whatever he wants outside that arch... kind of like controlling the only door out of a house.

[Skyweir]

As has been stated numerous times in the books, the Creator of the Land can't reach through the Arch of Time to affect the universe.

No .. I believe it was the Creator cant reach through the Arch of Time to affect his earth/the Land and its inhabitants.

I also recall (can't remember where it was stated, though) that all of creation is under the Arch.

not all of creation .. but the earth which the Creator organised exists within the bounds of the AoT.

However, he clearly touched the world at least twice, in the interview at the end of TPTP and as the man in the ochre robe at the start of TWL. Each of these was in the real world

. So you see there is no limit on his reach apparently outside of his AoT which confines the Land/his earth.

So how did the Creator reach the real world, without breaking the Arch of Time?

I too do not think SRD intended such a tangible connection between the Land and the earth/planet we live upon ..

The Creator speaks of Gods to TC .. and that

Gods and Creators are too poweful and powerless for despair.

So here the Creator acknowledges that there are 'Gods' plural and implies there are thereby 'creations' plural .. thus the old beggar man/Creator .. is one God .. and there are other gods .. as there are other worlds .. including our own.

Perhaps the fluidity in movement through the universe from one part to another is what gods are capable of ..

Those confined within an AoT .. are not so free in their movement ..

Beyond the AoT .. where the Creator resides there may presumably be no time .. [as we view it] nor the limits of a given space. I love this concept of an AoT .. as it is analogous to our own existence .. imho but not synonymous with it .. All existence is given a time and space within which to exist.


:););)