Well, in the ak Haru Kenaustin Ardenol post Fist and faith wrote (and i agree) about the morality of haruchai and earthpower, that only the capability of choose is within the realm of morality. in this context...
Are Ur-viles free and evil or they are simply slaves without more guilty than a simple weapon?.
In the first books i think they are no more than slaves, but in the second chronicles they fougth and take an important part in the final result (they made Vain). So... are they free or not?.
Ur viles and freedom
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Dlan_Mhoram
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Go back to TWL and reread the chapter "Weird of the Waynhim". That details alot about the morals and perceived obligations of demondim-spawn. The Ur-viles hate what they are, that they are made things and unnatural, and out of this they served Foul. The Waynhim are also unhappy with their creation and also with the work that their relatives are doing, and therefore, not out of love of the Land necessarily or for any reason the Lords etc can understand, they fought at Revelstone and preserve life from the Sunbane. So I think the Ur-viles decided that things had gone far enough and it behooved their weird to create the means to make another SOL. Mayhap they repented of ever having served Foul; but it is impossible to deny that demondim-spawn ever serve their own Weird. Foul was secondary. If they come to find that the Weird requires them to leave their service, they do it. I don't think LF was ever really their master, not as much as the Cavewights, and they had some leeway to betray him, too. Even his misborn creations the jheherrin had freedom...and the Ravers whom he did not create, they would have usurped his power in less time than it takes to say "Jehannum". So I guess what I'm saying is that the Ur-viles had freedom, but not necessarily significantly more than any other Foulchattel...except maybe the Stoneborn and the old dead commanded from their graves...
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I believe we are told a lot about both ur-Viles and Waynhim in the Second Chrons, and their behaviour is governed by their 'Weird' (the second chrons is full of this stuff, isn't it...). They do not like what they are - unnatural creatures incapable of reproduction - so they make up for this in different ways - The Waynhim fulfill their Weird by helping the natural things of the Land, repaying their unnatural presence by healing and helping nature.
The ur-Viles, also despising their form, hate natural things also. They chose to try and fix their hated appearence - they choose to work for despite in exchange for knowledge and power, and use this knowledge to create more creatures, just as the Demondim did before them, in a desparate effort to achieve perfection. They finally achieved this when they chose to redeem themselves for their past evils - they created Vain, a vessel for Earthpower, and the final perfection of the ur-Viles.
We can only speculate as to how they will behave after this - a large number of their race has been wiped out, but in the end the ur-Viles worked to restore the Law, and we are shown that they watched in their pools as Linden healed the Land.
Perhaps the ur-Viles will take up the role of the Waynhim - they almost wiped the Waynhim out (thinking that Vain's purpose had been revealed), and they may want to make up for their mistake.
The ur-Viles, also despising their form, hate natural things also. They chose to try and fix their hated appearence - they choose to work for despite in exchange for knowledge and power, and use this knowledge to create more creatures, just as the Demondim did before them, in a desparate effort to achieve perfection. They finally achieved this when they chose to redeem themselves for their past evils - they created Vain, a vessel for Earthpower, and the final perfection of the ur-Viles.
We can only speculate as to how they will behave after this - a large number of their race has been wiped out, but in the end the ur-Viles worked to restore the Law, and we are shown that they watched in their pools as Linden healed the Land.
Perhaps the ur-Viles will take up the role of the Waynhim - they almost wiped the Waynhim out (thinking that Vain's purpose had been revealed), and they may want to make up for their mistake.
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After reading some more topics in 'Dissecting the Land', I've thought of some more points. I'm going to discuss the origins of the ur-Viles here.
The ur-Viles were created by the Demondim, who were in turn created by the Viles. The Viles were apparently a lorewise race, but somehow it would seem they got into conflict with the Old Lords - the title and descriptions of Loric Vilesilencer suggest he led campaigns against the Viles.
We can assume that the Viles are just like any other race of the Land - they were neither evil or good in the sense that the Despiser is evil.
The Demondim were created by the Viles (apparently after the Viles became unable to reproduce - which is why they aren't around later on), and I believe there was a mention of the Demondim also being involved in conflict with Vilesilencer. They also do not appear to be evil - their name was used to attempt to lure Kevin into Treacher's Gorge, with a message saying that they had found a new knowledge, which suggests that the Lords and Demondim were at peace, and exchanged knowledge freely.
The ur-Viles should probably be thought of in the same way. A quote I found in another topic tells us:
The ur-Viles were created by the Demondim, who were in turn created by the Viles. The Viles were apparently a lorewise race, but somehow it would seem they got into conflict with the Old Lords - the title and descriptions of Loric Vilesilencer suggest he led campaigns against the Viles.
We can assume that the Viles are just like any other race of the Land - they were neither evil or good in the sense that the Despiser is evil.
The Demondim were created by the Viles (apparently after the Viles became unable to reproduce - which is why they aren't around later on), and I believe there was a mention of the Demondim also being involved in conflict with Vilesilencer. They also do not appear to be evil - their name was used to attempt to lure Kevin into Treacher's Gorge, with a message saying that they had found a new knowledge, which suggests that the Lords and Demondim were at peace, and exchanged knowledge freely.
The ur-Viles should probably be thought of in the same way. A quote I found in another topic tells us:
As you see here, the Demondim were tricked into creating the ur-Viles and Waynhim, for some unknown purpose of Lord Foul (Perhaps he foresaw that the ur-Viles would aid him). They are just like the Demondim who sired them, apart from their Weird - they hate their form (as the Demondim did also), and help Lord Foul in exchange for the knowledge to repair this. They are not evil, they just choose to work for evil when it suits their purposes.It was turiya and moksha, Herem and Jehannum, who lured the powerful and austere Demondim to their breeding dens, and to the spawning of the ur-viles.
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Fist and Faith
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I've always been of the opinion that the ur-Viles served Foul out of self-hatred, self-loathing. After all, isn't that the sort of thing Foul encourages?
The Waynhim seem to be able to accept themselves for what they are. Instead of sinking into racial self-hatred they are able to rise above such concerns to help others.
Abuse victims also face that same sort of choice. Perpetuate the abuse or turn their passion into a more positive direction.
The Waynhim seem to be able to accept themselves for what they are. Instead of sinking into racial self-hatred they are able to rise above such concerns to help others.
Abuse victims also face that same sort of choice. Perpetuate the abuse or turn their passion into a more positive direction.
Love as thou wilt.
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[Syl]
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The waynhim and the ur-viles always remind me of the Iz from the Maxx. That's how I picture them, except bigger.
"It is not the literal past that rules us, save, possibly, in a biological sense. It is images of the past. Each new historical era mirrors itself in the picture and active mythology of its past or of a past borrowed from other cultures. It tests its sense of identity, of regress or new achievement against that past.”
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KaosArcana
Duchess:
because it tends to serve the needs of the plot more so than anything
else.
Tolkien's orcs are really elves that have been degraded by Sauron and
his predecessor. Essentially, they're victims. No orc chooses to be born
an orc. He just is. They lack the element of choice.
We learn in _The Wounded Land_ that the Waynhim do not reproduce
their own kind: they sometimes occur from the breeding efforts of the
ur-viles. Hamako (I think) tells Covenant that each Waynhim and ur-vile
sees what they are and reacts to that differently: the ur-viles choose to
serve Foul and do his bidding. The Waynhim go off and do whatever
their weirds dictate.
Here's the thing: apparently EVERY Waynhim chooses to NOT serve
Foul and every ur-viles DOES? I mean, where's the element of choice
in that? We need to see a good ur-vile or an evil Waynhim to say they
can CHOOSE to be other than what they are.
Since we never see that, I think the ur-viles lack the capacity to choose to be good or evil. Like the orcs, their fate is preordained.
And yet, think on this: if the ur-viles are so evil, why do they let the
newly born Waynhim go off to be with the other Waynhim rather than
toss it back into the breeding pits?
The thing that I don't like about "evil races" in fiction is that they're evilI've always been of the opinion that the ur-Viles served Foul out of self-hatred, self-loathing. After all, isn't that the sort of thing Foul encourages?
The Waynhim seem to be able to accept themselves for what they are. Instead of sinking into racial self-hatred they are able to rise above such concerns to help others.
Abuse victims also face that same sort of choice. Perpetuate the abuse or turn their passion into a more positive direction.
because it tends to serve the needs of the plot more so than anything
else.
Tolkien's orcs are really elves that have been degraded by Sauron and
his predecessor. Essentially, they're victims. No orc chooses to be born
an orc. He just is. They lack the element of choice.
We learn in _The Wounded Land_ that the Waynhim do not reproduce
their own kind: they sometimes occur from the breeding efforts of the
ur-viles. Hamako (I think) tells Covenant that each Waynhim and ur-vile
sees what they are and reacts to that differently: the ur-viles choose to
serve Foul and do his bidding. The Waynhim go off and do whatever
their weirds dictate.
Here's the thing: apparently EVERY Waynhim chooses to NOT serve
Foul and every ur-viles DOES? I mean, where's the element of choice
in that? We need to see a good ur-vile or an evil Waynhim to say they
can CHOOSE to be other than what they are.
Since we never see that, I think the ur-viles lack the capacity to choose to be good or evil. Like the orcs, their fate is preordained.
And yet, think on this: if the ur-viles are so evil, why do they let the
newly born Waynhim go off to be with the other Waynhim rather than
toss it back into the breeding pits?
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Dlan_Mhoram
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Errr, i think that Ur-viles are that demondim´s products that choose to serve LF and wayhim are that Demondim´s products that choose not to serve, they are the same raze, the diference is what they choose. So we can´t see any evil wayhim because evil demondims are Ur-viles.
And at last, even Ur-viles served the Law, remember, they created Vain.
And at last, even Ur-viles served the Law, remember, they created Vain.
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But we also know they could not have evolved, as they do not reproduce.
KaosArcana - It seemed more likely to me that the Waynhim were produced in one of the attempts by the Demondim to produce ur-viles, not by the ur-viles in their experiments. My guess is that they produced the ur-viles and Waynhim either at separate times or in different attempts at breeding a new race, which is why they are different.
KaosArcana - It seemed more likely to me that the Waynhim were produced in one of the attempts by the Demondim to produce ur-viles, not by the ur-viles in their experiments. My guess is that they produced the ur-viles and Waynhim either at separate times or in different attempts at breeding a new race, which is why they are different.
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KaosArcana
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I wish I could find my copy of _The Wounded Land._
It's right after Covenant has been saved by the Waynhim. Hamako
tells him that the ur-vile experiments are still producing new Waynhim.
I'm sure of it. The Waynhim aren't immortal, just unnaturally long of
life-- Hamako tells Covenant that some of the Waynhim in his weird
(or wyrd) came to the aid of Mhoram during the battle against the
Giant-Raver. If only SOME of them still remember, then new ones are
being created somehow.
.But we also know they could not have evolved, as they do not reproduce.
KaosArcana - It seemed more likely to me that the Waynhim were produced in one of the attempts by the Demondim to produce ur-viles, not by the ur-viles in their experiments. My guess is that they produced the ur-viles and Waynhim either at separate times or in different attempts at breeding a new race, which is why they are different
I wish I could find my copy of _The Wounded Land._
It's right after Covenant has been saved by the Waynhim. Hamako
tells him that the ur-vile experiments are still producing new Waynhim.
I'm sure of it. The Waynhim aren't immortal, just unnaturally long of
life-- Hamako tells Covenant that some of the Waynhim in his weird
(or wyrd) came to the aid of Mhoram during the battle against the
Giant-Raver. If only SOME of them still remember, then new ones are
being created somehow.
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Nekhrima Vain
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Hello Everyone,,,
With regards to the question of the Ur-Viles and their Freedom of Choice and why they created Vain. I have dwelt upon this one for a while and am ready to submit the following conclusion. All creatures of the Land have a will. All creatures of the Demondim Spawn are a MANIFESTATION of that will. Ok what exactly does that mean...WHen High Lord Mhoram was contemplating fighting Satansfist he understood the answer as to why the new lords were not nearly as powerfull as the old lords. It had to do with them takin the Oath of Peace and as such they "numbed themselves" to the deepest and most violent of human emotions which are the source of the potency of the old Lords power. (Power that preserves) So using Zen Bhuddist Methodology (which was powerful in the 70's) Every good thing must have a little bit of evil). When it comes to the Demondim Spawn they are the MANIFESTATION of the Demondim, which are the spawn of the Viles (must be evil or why would Loric fight them?) The vast majority fo the Spawn are Ur-Viles and some a small Minority are Waynhim. I suspect that they see the same Weird but manifest it differently. The reason that the Ur-Viles allow the Waynhim to spawn from the same pits and do not destroy the Waynhim. So in every evil there exists a little good. The reason the Ur-Viles created Vain is that they understood that nature (personified in the staff of Law) is polarized by Life (The Elohim) and Spirit (Demondim Spawn). The power that drives the land is "emotion" both destructive and benevolent, while what makes the land a beautiful and green and magical place is earth power "The Elohim" BOTH are needed. The Weird of the Demondim Spawn knew this, and of course the Elohim knew this. I suspect that the Ur-Viles were not the only ones watching the demise of foul. The Waynhim and Elohim both knew and they were both watching.
"In every good there exists a little evil, in every evil there exists a little good"
Nekhrima Vain.
With regards to the question of the Ur-Viles and their Freedom of Choice and why they created Vain. I have dwelt upon this one for a while and am ready to submit the following conclusion. All creatures of the Land have a will. All creatures of the Demondim Spawn are a MANIFESTATION of that will. Ok what exactly does that mean...WHen High Lord Mhoram was contemplating fighting Satansfist he understood the answer as to why the new lords were not nearly as powerfull as the old lords. It had to do with them takin the Oath of Peace and as such they "numbed themselves" to the deepest and most violent of human emotions which are the source of the potency of the old Lords power. (Power that preserves) So using Zen Bhuddist Methodology (which was powerful in the 70's) Every good thing must have a little bit of evil). When it comes to the Demondim Spawn they are the MANIFESTATION of the Demondim, which are the spawn of the Viles (must be evil or why would Loric fight them?) The vast majority fo the Spawn are Ur-Viles and some a small Minority are Waynhim. I suspect that they see the same Weird but manifest it differently. The reason that the Ur-Viles allow the Waynhim to spawn from the same pits and do not destroy the Waynhim. So in every evil there exists a little good. The reason the Ur-Viles created Vain is that they understood that nature (personified in the staff of Law) is polarized by Life (The Elohim) and Spirit (Demondim Spawn). The power that drives the land is "emotion" both destructive and benevolent, while what makes the land a beautiful and green and magical place is earth power "The Elohim" BOTH are needed. The Weird of the Demondim Spawn knew this, and of course the Elohim knew this. I suspect that the Ur-Viles were not the only ones watching the demise of foul. The Waynhim and Elohim both knew and they were both watching.
"In every good there exists a little evil, in every evil there exists a little good"
Nekhrima Vain.
"You will teach us despair--if you fail"
Warmark Quaan.
"That which does not kill us can only make us stronger" Friedrich Neitsche
Warmark Quaan.
"That which does not kill us can only make us stronger" Friedrich Neitsche
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Dlan_Mhoram
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I have problems with that, you give demondim, and the weidr of the demondim some philosofy that sounds very strange for me, i have born in 79 so i don´t know much of it. I don´t really think that Demondim´s weird can be a sensible thing, and Ur-viles with Zen methods... well, it sounds very strange for me. In my opinion, any pretensions that I´m right, this is a forced explanation
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Nekhrima Vain
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Dlan_Mhoram wrote:I have problems with that, you give demondim, and the weidr of the demondim some philosofy that sounds very strange for me, i have born in 79 so i don´t know much of it. I don´t really think that Demondim´s weird can be a sensible thing, and Ur-viles with Zen methods... well, it sounds very strange for me. In my opinion, any pretensions that I´m right, this is a forced explanation
Ok, how can I try to explain it better. The creatures of the Land all have their own will. They choose which path to follow. Some, like the Elohim and the Ur-Viles are controlled by some sort of a common thought or directive (i.e the Weird or Wurd). It is my guess that the original Viles that spawned the Demondim, who inturn spawned the Ur-Viles were some sort of fallen Elohim. But this is only my hypothesis. What does look to be somewhat certain is that although bound by this common purpose some members of the Elohim do not choose the path of their cause and try to avert its purpose for their own survival (we all know about the second staff of Law) thus allowing a small portion of evil (in this case selfishness or self preservation to exist in the design of their Wurd). in the case of the Ur-Viles their Weird decided that a portion of its directive would work FOR the LAND (a little good in a lot of Evil=Waynhim). The entire model becomes established in the creation of the second staff where Vain a creature of the evil Ur-Viles but designated for a purpose that would benefit the land..was forced to join with an Elohim that was selfish enough to risk the healing of the Land in order to save himself. This creates the full Ying-Yang Model. I am not sure if SDR consciously does this, but I think its definately there. Might be a bit cheesy but hey its there
"You will teach us despair--if you fail"
Warmark Quaan.
"That which does not kill us can only make us stronger" Friedrich Neitsche
Warmark Quaan.
"That which does not kill us can only make us stronger" Friedrich Neitsche
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danlo
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how Vain bcame cool...
I posted this a looong time ago on an ancient topic (pg. 6) called Lawful Ur-viles? 
so this is how I feel about the whole thing... 
I have a pet theory, that I haven't developed yet, that strains of good were masked and passed through the demondim-spawn and other creations, corruptions and mis-shaping of Foul's to such as Vain, the Waynhym and, of course, the jherrinin. Remember the old legends said the Viles were once a high and lofty race and after Loric "rendered them seedless", and the Ravers and Foul corrupted them I believe they must have found a way 2 somehow pass an once of their goodness through the demondim-spawn and other creations. I don't kno about the cavewrights--I think, with all their flaws, they were Foul's baby alone--the Ravers on the other hand r a completely dif matter. The only excuses I can give TC 4 mistreating Vain is: 1) He freaked him out by the way he killed the Stonedowners 2) Vain was demondim-spawn and 3) 4got Vain was even there 3/4ths of the time... It has been pointed out 2 me since I intially wrote this around 6-15 that the cavewrights were, initially "nuetral" as well
so this is how I feel about the whole thing... I have a pet theory, that I haven't developed yet, that strains of good were masked and passed through the demondim-spawn and other creations, corruptions and mis-shaping of Foul's to such as Vain, the Waynhym and, of course, the jherrinin. Remember the old legends said the Viles were once a high and lofty race and after Loric "rendered them seedless", and the Ravers and Foul corrupted them I believe they must have found a way 2 somehow pass an once of their goodness through the demondim-spawn and other creations. I don't kno about the cavewrights--I think, with all their flaws, they were Foul's baby alone--the Ravers on the other hand r a completely dif matter. The only excuses I can give TC 4 mistreating Vain is: 1) He freaked him out by the way he killed the Stonedowners 2) Vain was demondim-spawn and 3) 4got Vain was even there 3/4ths of the time... It has been pointed out 2 me since I intially wrote this around 6-15 that the cavewrights were, initially "nuetral" as well
fall far and well Pilots!