The ******* Have Lost My Respect *spoilers*

[Revan]

Ranyhyn... they completely sickened me in this book...

"bowing their heads" - wtf? And the Ramen going "100 horse reared to Thomas Covenant, but to you, we deem, the Ranyhyn have given a greater respect".

Man, that had me so angry. the Ranyhyn sucking up to Linden... and giving her more worth than Covenant. What the hell does Linden have that Thomas didn't? Apart from a greater annoyance skills.

Linden will never be half the character Thomas is. Ever. She is not liked... For me, she ruined much of this book. She was insufferable. And the Ranyhyn... I used to like them... but now... they sicken me. And my face shows distaste every time I read about them.

[dlbpharmd]

Gotta disagree with you here, Darth. To me the Ranyhyn were still the same grand creatures we all remember.

[Revan]

Yeah, they were the same; but putting Linden above Thomas ruined them. I loath them. How can you still have respect for them?

Thomas was competely replaced by Linden in this book.

[dlbpharmd]

He was supposed to be, Darth - there is just no way around it. This is not the first time that Linden has been front and center, or have you forgotten The One Tree?

Spoiler

And how else could you have that great cliffhanger?

[Revan]

I liked the One Tree dlbpharmd... now... listen... the reason I loved Linden in the second Chronicles is because of the love story... now... I've always been a sucker for a well written love story. Linden made me so angry when she used the White Gold in WGW though... possessing Covenant... having the ring at the end...

The Cliffhanger was great dlbpharmd... that I don't deny... but still, Linden annoyed me.

The only times in this book where I enjoyed reading from Linden's PoV was when she thought about Thomas... her love and loyalty to him was great; but even at the end, that means nothing. There's a part that says:

"Thomas covenant calling her name, she tried to ignore him; then maybe all her problems would go away".

wtf is that supposed to mean?

[UrLord]

Notice that the Ranyhyn gave unheard-of displays of respect to both Covenant and Linden, but in entirely different ways. To me, although the Ramen may have "deemed it a greater respect," that doesn't necessarily make it so. There seems to be a fundamental difference between Covenant and Linden that SRD explores in Runes. He repeatedly states that the Staff of Law is more apt a tool for Linden than wild magic, and I believe that this is because wild magic, by its very nature, is an expression of Covenant's passion. Covenant's passion takes the form of indomitable defiance, whereas Linden's takes the form of a desire to heal. Mhoram had said that Covenant is the wild magic (or white gold, which to me amounts to the same thing), and I believe that works both ways. Covenant is the wild magic, the wild magic is Covenant. The wild magic is inherently dangerous, which is why I believe the Ranyhyn reared to him in a mixture of both respect and fear. Linden's connection with Law and healing, however, is more in tune with the Ranyhyn's essential nature, which explains the pure deference and respect they showed her, with none of the fear they felt towards Covenant.

To me, Covenant has always seemed a hostile figure. He always meets Foul's machinations and the Land's peril with righteous anger and firey passion, matching the nature of wild magic. Even his apparently calm resolve at the end of the second chronicles seemed to me simply finely focused defiance. Even accepting Foul as part of himself and allowing Foul to strike him down, he denied that Foul had the capacity to defeat him. Would you not fear such a man who wielded enough power to bring down the arch of time and crush the earth?

The Ranyhyn reared to Covenant and bowed to Linden. Each one showed different forms of respect. One was for a dangerous man who could just as easily damn them as save them, and the other was for a strong woman who shared the same passion for earthpower and healing that they do. I don't believe that one form is inherently stronger than the other, but certainly the Ramen would prefer a person like Linden who doesn't scare the crap out of the horses they serve.

[burgs]

UrLord, you took the words out of my mouth, and probably stated it more eloquently than I could have.

I'll add this.

The Ramen are human. Tha Haruchai are human. This makes them fallible. They can perceive, but their perceptions are tainted by their experiences - for good or bad. For what it's worth, I think the Haruchai are as wrong about everything as they could possibly be. Every choice they have ever made, from the admirable but ridiculous service to Kevin (they lost their wives!), to the beating of Stave, has been fundamentally flawed. As a people, their passions flaw them.

Darth, I'm sorry, but I found the Ranyhyn's bowing to Linden absolutely appropriate, for all of the reasons that UrLord stated.

I also loved Linden in this book. I thought she carried a "Covenant" book quite well. We've yet to see the depths of her abilities, and I am anxious to see what they are. No doubt - we will see that in the next three books.

[Prince of Amber]

Great post Ur-lord,

[Revan]

Notice that the Ranyhyn gave unheard-of displays of respect to both Covenant and Linden, but in entirely different ways. To me, although the Ramen may have "deemed it a greater respect," that doesn't necessarily make it so. There seems to be a fundamental difference between Covenant and Linden that SRD explores in Runes. He repeatedly states that the Staff of Law is more apt a tool for Linden than wild magic, and I believe that this is because wild magic, by its very nature, is an expression of Covenant's passion. Covenant's passion takes the form of indomitable defiance, whereas Linden's takes the form of a desire to heal. Mhoram had said that Covenant is the wild magic (or white gold, which to me amounts to the same thing), and I believe that works both ways. Covenant is the wild magic, the wild magic is Covenant. The wild magic is inherently dangerous, which is why I believe the Ranyhyn reared to him in a mixture of both respect and fear. Linden's connection with Law and healing, however, is more in tune with the Ranyhyn's essential nature, which explains the pure deference and respect they showed her, with none of the fear they felt towards Covenant.

To me, Covenant has always seemed a hostile figure. He always meets Foul's machinations and the Land's peril with righteous anger and firey passion, matching the nature of wild magic. Even his apparently calm resolve at the end of the second chronicles seemed to me simply finely focused defiance. Even accepting Foul as part of himself and allowing Foul to strike him down, he denied that Foul had the capacity to defeat him. Would you not fear such a man who wielded enough power to bring down the arch of time and crush the earth?

The Ranyhyn reared to Covenant and bowed to Linden. Each one showed different forms of respect. One was for a dangerous man who could just as easily damn them as save them, and the other was for a strong woman who shared the same passion for earthpower and healing that they do. I don't believe that one form is inherently stronger than the other, but certainly the Ramen would prefer a person like Linden who doesn't scare the crap out of the horses they serve.

All Hail the greatness of that post!

Great post Ur-load

^^^^ Ur-load

heh

yeah... I see your point now... but I will only forgive the Ranyhyn if Thomas gets his ring back.

[CovenantJr]

Yes, a good post. And I agree about the difference between Linden and Covenant. Covenant is, in a word, extreme. Extremes of misery and joy, extremes of billigerence and kindness, extremes of hate and love, extremes of turmoil, of behaviour, and of attitude. Linden is more...moderate.

[UrLord]

Thanks The Chronicles tend to be a more interesting subject to ponder than calculating the gradient of graphs in three-dimensional space, so I probably spend more time than is healthy thinking about this stuff

I also think "extreme" is a good word to describe Covenant, but I wouldn't necessarily call Linden "moderate" except in comparison to him.

[burgs]

There seems to be a fundamental difference between Covenant and Linden that SRD explores in Runes. He repeatedly states that the Staff of Law is more apt a tool for Linden than wild magic, and I believe that this is because wild magic, by its very nature, is an expression of Covenant's passion. Covenant's passion takes the form of indomitable defiance, whereas Linden's takes the form of a desire to heal. Mhoram had said that Covenant is the wild magic (or white gold, which to me amounts to the same thing), and I believe that works both ways. Covenant is the wild magic, the wild magic is Covenant.

This raises an interesting question, one which I believe will be answered in this series (as it is hinted at in Runes), but hasn't been yet. The "real world" is replete with white gold. I bear a white gold ring myself! (Dork alert...) Why won't any white gold ring (which should be adequately infused with wild magic) suffice for Foul? Even Joan's ring seems to be insufficient for his purposes. He wants - he needs Covenant. Why? Is it because the Creator, his Enemy, chose Covenant for the task? If that's the case, what are the implications of that? We know that Foul can reach into the "real world" - he did it in the Second Chronicles, although it was Joan's insanity that allowed it. What restricted him then from reaching out to some lame idiot that didn't have the passion for The Land that Covenant learned in the First Chronicles, but who held a white gold ring, and manipulating him? Covenant, despite the Despisers insistence, is not so easy to manipulate.

Why is Covenant necessary?

It could be that Foul has lost his hold on relative sanity (who wouldn't, after having been beaten as often as he has, and forced to lie licking his wounds for countless millenia), and sees Covenant as much an adversary as he sees the Creator. Remember - Foul has [/i]never won. EVER. He has been completely defeated - by Berek, by Vileselencer (I'm assuming that Foul had his hands in that whole mess), by Kevin (even though Kevin destroyed much, the Earthpower was preseved, and Foul was sorely wounded), and by Covenant - TWICE.

Or perhaps the Creator and Covenant are one and the same. Covenant said, in the Second Chronicles, that he and Foul were the same. Legends say that Despite was either the son or the brother (or part of the hidden heart) of the Creator. Covenant could be a duplicate of that offshoot. He certainly understands both sides of the coin well enough to be either Despiser of Creator.

Why does Foul think he needs Covenant?

[burgs]

Uh, sorry for all the italics. They were intended only for the last sentence of that post, not half of the paragraph above.

[burgs]

And the Ranyhyn... I used to like them... but now... they sicken me. And my face shows distaste every time I read about them.

Darth, I'm curious. After the posts, especially that of UrLord, have your opinions of the Ranyhyn changed? I viewed them as the sanest beings in the Land, and thought that their wisdom outshone everyone else's - certainly the ignorant Haruchai.

[native]

Although I find it quite hard to respect fantasy horses, I think you guys are onto a wider theme here. The unquestioning obeissance accorded to Linden by earthpower groupies is IMHO going to be heavily called into question as this chronicle goes on.

[burgs]

Although I find it quite hard to respect fantasy horses, I think you guys are onto a wider theme here. The unquestioning obeissance accorded to Linden by earthpower groupies is IMHO going to be heavily called into question as this chronicle goes on.

The key is that it IS fantasy, which means anything goes. And the Ranyhyn really aren't horses, their creatures of Earthpower.

[Prover of Life]

Yes, a good post. And I agree about the difference between Linden and Covenant. Covenant is, in a word, extreme. Extremes of misery and joy, extremes of billigerence and kindness, extremes of hate and love, extremes of turmoil, of behaviour, and of attitude. Linden is more...moderate.

Don't forget....

He who wields the white, wild, magic gold
Is everything and nothing
Hero and fool
Mad and sane
Lost and found


A paradox.

[Prover of Life]

Although I find it quite hard to respect fantasy horses, I think you guys are onto a wider theme here. The unquestioning obeissance accorded to Linden by earthpower groupies is IMHO going to be heavily called into question as this chronicle goes on.

The key is that it IS fantasy, which means anything goes. And the Ranyhyn really aren't horses, their creatures of Earthpower.

I wonder about the star on their foreheads. Is that a direct link to the children of the creator, the stars?

[CovenantJr]

The "real world" is replete with white gold. I bear a white gold ring myself! (Dork alert...) Why won't any white gold ring (which should be adequately infused with wild magic) suffice for Foul?

My theory would be this: Wild magic is an articulation of its wielder. If we take this to mean the person to whom it "belongs" rather than just whoever is holding the white gold (ie Covenant's ring always accesses Covenant's wild magic) then perhaps only the wild magic that is an articulation of Covenant is apt for the uses Foul and the Creator have in mind.

[burgs]

The "real world" is replete with white gold. I bear a white gold ring myself! (Dork alert...) Why won't any white gold ring (which should be adequately infused with wild magic) suffice for Foul?

My theory would be this: Wild magic is an articulation of its wielder. If we take this to mean the person to whom it "belongs" rather than just whoever is holding the white gold (ie Covenant's ring always accesses Covenant's wild magic) then perhaps only the wild magic that is an articulation of Covenant is apt for the uses Foul and the Creator have in mind.

Which would tie Covenant to the Land inexorably, and to watch how that plays out will truly by mesmerizing - i.e., the link between TC, Foul, and The Creator.