My Biggest Surprise

[Aleksandr]

My biggest surprise in Runes is the Demondim, and the history that is revealed about the Viles, the Demondim and the Ur-Viles/Waynhim. Somwhere I thought the Viles had been described as essentually normal (if non-human) beings living in the Land in pre-human times who were later corruped by Foul and the Ravers.

Spoiler

Instead they are shown as rather malevolent spirits who tried to create bodies for themselves by coopting the dead— hence the Demondim.

And anyone wonder about just how Loric was able to defeat the Demondim way back when? What powers did the Krill have in this regard?

Spoiler

And if the Demondim are back will Linden (or someone at least) have to retrieve the Krill from its resting place in Andelain to fight them?

[dlbpharmd]

Spoiler

Just some thoughts:

If the Demondim of Loric's time were supported by the Illearth Stone (as they are in Runes) then the Staff of Law would not have been enough to oppose them. Therefore, the need to create another weapon, i.e., the krill.

However, the krill is dead - I don't remember exactly what is said about it in WGW after Caer-Caveral's death, but I'm pretty sure that SRD makes it clear that it won't be used again. Will try to find the exact quote this evening.

[Aleksandr]

However, the krill is dead - I don't remember exactly what is said about it in WGW after Caer-Caveral's death, but I'm pretty sure that SRD makes it clear that it won't be used again. Will try to find the exact quote this evening.

I didn't think the Krill was dead at the end of WGW (after Sunder used it to slay Caer Caverral and break the Law of Life). Or at least no more dead and gone than the blade was at the end of TPTP when Mhoram tossed it into Glimmermere as a affirmation that the Lords would seek Lore which did not challenge Peace. The Krill's gem had lost its glow (but it had none at the end of TPTP or when we first encountered it in the Illearth War) and it was stuck in the stump of the tree that was all that was left of Caer Caverral. We were told that it could not be drawn out, but I don't think such a feat would surpass Wild Magic, which could also reignite again the way Covenant did initially.

[Dave]

I didn't think the Krill was dead at the end of WGW (after Sunder used it to slay Caer Caverral and break the Law of Life). Or at least no more dead and gone than the blade was at the end of TPTP when Mhoram tossed it into Glimmermere as a affirmation that the Lords would seek Lore which did not challenge Peace.

I can't put my hands on my copy of WGW at the moment, but I seem to recall a mention of the gem being cracked. I could be wrong, though.

Still, thanks to those handy-dandy ceasures, one could go back in time and recover it from Glimmermere in the interval between the first two series, and then return it after you were done with it. I have to hope things of this nature don't start happeneing in the final Chronicles, though, because it all begins to sound like a badly written episode of Star Trek.

[burgs]

It was't cracked, the light simply went out after Sunder slayed Caer-Caveral.

"Stabbed deep into the charred wood beyond any hope of removal was the krill. Only the flames that licked the stump made it visible: the light of its gem was gone."

Linden has spoken of wanting to go to Andelain. Will the krill be there still?

[Aleksandr]

Re: Still, thanks to those handy-dandy ceasures, one could go back in time and recover it from Glimmermere in the interval between the first two series, and then return it after you were done with it. I have to hope things of this nature don't start happeneing in the final Chronicles, though, because it all begins to sound like a badly written episode of Star Trek.

I don't think we're going to see a lot of time travel; (and like you I hope we don't too!) since the Caesures are so exquisitely painful.

[CovenantJr]

I agree. At least, I don't think Linden will be doing much of it. I do, however, suspect we will continue to see things, like Anele and the ur-viles, that have popped up from the past.

[burgs]

Beyond being painful, the caesures also present a risk to the Arch of Time. But they wouldn't exist if there wasn't a purpose them beyond what we have seen. I'm sure SRD has quite a few surprises in store for us.

[King Elessar 8]

I didn't think the Krill was dead at the end of WGW (after Sunder used it to slay Caer Caverral and break the Law of Life). Or at least no more dead and gone than the blade was at the end of TPTP when Mhoram tossed it into Glimmermere as a affirmation that the Lords would seek Lore which did not challenge Peace.

I can't put my hands on my copy of WGW at the moment, but I seem to recall a mention of the gem being cracked. I could be wrong, though.

Still, thanks to those handy-dandy ceasures, one could go back in time and recover it from Glimmermere in the interval between the first two series, and then return it after you were done with it. I have to hope things of this nature don't start happeneing in the final Chronicles, though, because it all begins to sound like a badly written episode of Star Trek.

Contrary to some of the early reports of this series being heavy on time-travel, Im inclined to think it isnt going to be. The use of the Falls is far too agonizing and difficult, for one thing. Lindens intent in entering one in "Runes" would have failed without the aid of the Ur-Viles, and we see from the events in Runes that those ancient foes of the Land arent really in a position to offer that sort of aid on a regular basis. Probably it was on the specific nature of her desire - to recover the Staff - that lead them to offer aid at all.
Second, its pretty clear that using one to travel through time is a hideous violation of Law that could easily bring about the destruction of the Arch of Time, either just by simple use, or by the even more likely prospect of changing some aspect of the past. The Staff quest worked because they had a specific locale in mind, at a specific time, with a very defined goal, and all of this happened in an area of the Land that was nearly deserted, reducing the chances for altering history and bringing down the Arch. Even still, the Demondim attack could easily have ended in disaster - had Linden even tried to directly fight them, Time would have been destroyed. With all of this in mind, I doubt the characters are going to trip through time with any impunity. Donaldson has made it pretty clear that it isnt a very wise thing to be doing, and I think its safe to say Linden wont do it again unless she has absolutely no other choice.

Anyway, there would be no need to travel in time to recover the Krill. There is no reason to think that it isnt still trapped in the tree trunk in Andelain.

[CovenantJr]

Except that the tree trunk might be looking a little shabby after nearly 4000 years

[King Elessar 8]

Except that the tree trunk might be looking a little shabby after nearly 4000 years

Well that is a good point, but the stump is (in essense) what remains of Caer-Caveral, so it wouldnt surprise me if it were still around. Andelain itself may very well have preserved it.

[CovenantJr]

That's true, and I have a suspicion that we'll find out.

[burgs]

I think it's in good shape. And that we will find out.

[Bullfrog]

I think the Demondim can be defeated or at least weakened because the Staff can close/destroy the caesure through which they access the Stone.

[Raist]

One thing that disturbed me about the Demondim is that it seems to be a bit of a grey area involving the law of death. I suppose re-animating the corpses without the original spirit might get around this, but I had thought it was only the breaking of the Law of Death that allowed the giant raver to animate the dead in the seige of Revelstone.

<shrug>

As for jaunts through time, remember that it isn't only Linden (with the aid of Ur-viles and Ranyhyn) that is capable of this. The Demondom have shown that they have the Lore for it. Who else? Kastenessen? The Ravers? The Croyel? Esmer seems to have been able to do it too...

And just how far back do these falls go? The use of the Illearth Sstone suggests that tyhey go back to at least the time between Kevin's desecration and Covenant's first victory. Maybe they go back further (or will as the story continues.

What if one of the old lords saw the need to jump into one? I have a feeling that we haven't heard the last of poor old Kevin.

And for that matter, what happens if Kevin's desecration is drawn through the falls (in a similar way to the Demindim's drawing on the power of the Illearth stone)?

More thinking aloud there...

R.

[burgs]

Ugh. You're making my head hurt!

So many possibilities.

[A Gunslinger]

One thing that disturbed me about the Demondim is that it seems to be a bit of a grey area involving the law of death. I suppose re-animating the corpses without the original spirit might get around this, but I had thought it was only the breaking of the Law of Death that allowed the giant raver to animate the dead in the seige of Revelstone.

<shrug>

As for jaunts through time, remember that it isn't only Linden (with the aid of Ur-viles and Ranyhyn) that is capable of this. The Demondom have shown that they have the Lore for it. Who else? Kastenessen? The Ravers? The Croyel? Esmer seems to have been able to do it too...

And just how far back do these falls go? The use of the Illearth Sstone suggests that tyhey go back to at least the time between Kevin's desecration and Covenant's first victory. Maybe they go back further (or will as the story continues.

What if one of the old lords saw the need to jump into one? I have a feeling that we haven't heard the last of poor old Kevin.

And for that matter, what happens if Kevin's desecration is drawn through the falls (in a similar way to the Demindim's drawing on the power of the Illearth stone)?

More thinking aloud there...

R.

The full ritual through a fall? Only White gold could manage....er....Waitaminnit.

[PitchDude]

Lovely point, Gunslinger.

HowEVer, I'd like to make an observation about the caesures. It keeps coming up here that they 'threaten' the Arch of Time. Well, gosh, they seem to have been going on for, oh, a thousand years or so, and yet the grass still seems to grow in The Land. I really don't think we have too much to worry about with them, at least with regard to the Arch (a.k.a. TC)

Oh, and about the Krill (I always think of whale-food when I see that word) - who says it's still in Andelain? Sure, it's a good guess, but I can't help but think that the 'Masters' (Gawd, I hate that term almost as much as 'Kevin's Dirt') would have grabbed it and squirrelled it away in the deepest depths of Revelstone.

At least, that's what I think tonight...

Jim

[CovenantJr]

HowEVer, I'd like to make an observation about the caesures. It keeps coming up here that they 'threaten' the Arch of Time. Well, gosh, they seem to have been going on for, oh, a thousand years or so, and yet the grass still seems to grow in The Land. I really don't think we have too much to worry about with them, at least with regard to the Arch

However...Joan's making more of them all the time. Remember the image of the rocks being shattered? Creating caesure after caesure, Joan is slowly dismantling the Arch, brick by brick...

[Sweet Brutha Numpsay]

Its stuck again just like it was in the first chronicles. Thats what I believe. Its only as powerless as it was then. Waiting for the right time once again possible. (Sword in the stone type deal)