The ******* Have Lost My Respect *spoilers*

[UrLord]

What restricted him then from reaching out to some lame idiot that didn't have the passion for The Land that Covenant learned in the First Chronicles, but who held a white gold ring, and manipulating him? Covenant, despite the Despisers insistence, is not so easy to manipulate.

I got the impression from the first Chronicles that the only reason Covenant could be transported to the Land in the first place was because both Foul and the Creator chose him, otherwise the summoning would not have worked. After someone has been summoned once, though, it seems they can be summoned as many times as needed after that...hence why Linden's "accidental" summoning together with Covenant in TWL in enough to allow her to be summoned again in Runes (and take Roger, Jeremiah, and Joan with her). Foul simply can't choose whoever he wants. (And the Creator is unlikely to say "Ok, Foul, it doesn't seem fair to keep sending you the guy who's able to beat you, I'll let you pick someone else")

Of course, if that explanation doesn't cut it for you, I have an alternative. I think we all understand the reasons Covenant was chosen the first time around. The reason Foul wanted Covenant again for the second Chronicles would be simply that it would be difficult for anyone other than Covenant (who has seen the Land at its most beautiful) to care enough to fight for the Sunbane-stricken wasteland that it had become in the second Chronicles. After Covenant dies, of course, Foul doesn't really have a choice in whether he stays...I could speculate on why he wants Linden in the Land for the last Chronicles (other than my theory that the only way he could even bring anyone else into the Land is on the heels of someone who had already been summoned before), but until we really know Foul's plan, it won't mean much.

As to why he can't use Joan...Linden's theory is that it's because she's too insane to be manipulated. Also, it could be that her insanity prevents her from being anything greater than Foul's tool, and it was mentioned in the first Chronicles that a tool is neither capable of threatening nor protecting the Arch.

[CovenantJr]

Also, it could be that her insanity prevents her from being anything greater than Foul's tool, and it was mentioned in the first Chronicles that a tool is neither capable of threatening nor protecting the Arch.

I'd go along with that. Joan's insanity is a direct result of Foul's influence (ok, she was a bit unstable because of her guilt over leaving Covenant, but that just allowed Foul to establish a hold on her) so I agree that she doesn't have the free will that seems so vital.

...allow her to be summoned again in Runes (and take Roger, Jeremiah, and Joan with her)

I got the impression that this was the other way round. I'm pretty sure that at some point, Linden said Joan preceded her to the Land, and then summoned her. Of course, this is just Linden's theory...

[burgs]

I got the impression from the first Chronicles that the only reason Covenant could be transported to the Land in the first place was because both Foul and the Creator chose him

That wasn't my impression. Here's what it says in TPTP, Leper's End:

(Creator) "Then take peace in your other innocence. You did not choose the task. You did not undertake it of your own free will. It was thrust upon you. Blame belongs to the chooser, and this choice was made by one who elected you without your knowledge or consent."

(Covenant) "You must have been sure of yourself."

(Creator) "Sure? Ah, no. There was great hazard - risk for the world which I made - risk even for me. Had my enemy gained the white wild magic gold, he would have unloosed himself from the Earth...I risked my trust in you. My own hands were bound...Only a free man could hope to stand against my enemy, hope to preserve the Earth."

That's the gist of it. It's clear - to me at least - that what happened was: 1) Lord Foul wanted white gold in The Land; 2) He at last had The Staff of Law under his control, the only tool capable of performing such a summons [so it was thought at the time]; 3) Drool performed the summons; 4) The Creator chose Covenant to be his "champion".

With regard to his summoning in the 2nd series, I think you're either dead-on or pretty close, as SRD would define it. Foul is only capable of reaching into Covenant's world through Joan, so his choices are limited. To add to that, how many other people with white gold would have acrificed themselves for Joan?

[UrLord]

You might be right about Foul not having any choice in the matter, but my point was that Foul didn't have the opportunity to pick and choose whoever he wanted to summon. In every instance he was forced to work with whatever he was given.

[markjeffrey]

Foul has no choice in the matter because he IS Thomas Covenant -- just as Thomas Covenant IS Foul. Two sides of one coin. That's why Anele-as-Foul is HELPING Linden, but with a Foul-like Bad Attitude.

And besides, Donaldson himself has said in the third go-around, Covenant BECOMES Lord Foul. First time = muscle, second time = acceptance/transcendance, third time = full integration of the shadow.

[burgs]

And besides, Donaldson himself has said in the third go-around, Covenant BECOMES Lord Foul.

Where did he say that?

[dlbpharmd]

There's an old interview in which he says that. I think it's on the SRD website, possibly under structured interviews. Will try to find it.

[CovenantJr]

And besides, Donaldson himself has said in the third go-around, Covenant BECOMES Lord Foul. First time = muscle, second time = acceptance/transcendance, third time = full integration of the shadow.

From you, Mr Jeffery:

In a 1991 interview, you mention that the first Covenant chronicles reflected a test of muscle and the second a test of sacrifice. You also said that if you ever chose to pursue the idea, the next test would be one of acceptance.

[UrLord]

I don't really trust SRD (when he slyly reveals half-spoilers as he likes to do from time to time) enough to take the "Covenant becomes Foul" line at face value. It's such a teaser, but it could really mean anything. It's probably something along the lines of "Covenant becomes like Foul in the sense that etc, etc..."

[markjeffrey]

No I remember where I saw it ...
It was NOT in the 1997 interview I did with him
It was in the WA Senior book .. I just recalled this and do not have time to thumb it out to prove it, but I know it was in there. He was speculating on 'what the third one would be like if he wrote it'.

[burgs]

Darn it, you're absolutely correct.

Spoiler

In the First Chronicles, Thomas Covenant faces Lord Foul and defeats him. In the Second Chronicles, Thomas Covenant surrenders to Lord Foul and accepts him. In the Last Chronicles, Thomas Covenant becomes Lord Foul. Following the psychological paradigm through, what happens at the point that you become your own other self is that you become whole, and the universe is made new.

So what the heck does all that mean?

Taking what he says at face value for the ending of the Second Chronicles, it's difficult to imagine that TC did what he did. There were deeper elements at work. My guess is that the same thing is going on here. It's just too simple - and SRD never does anything simple, especially with regard to Covenant - for him to become his other self.

It's too early in the morning for me to understand what all that means. But he did say it. Damn him.

[mod edit]

[CovenantJr]

Darth will never stop gloating over this I've been fighting him vehemently on the

Spoiler

"Covenant is Foul"

issue

[mod edit]

[burgs]

Spoiler

Well we know, from the ending of WGW, that TC and Foul are two sides of the same coin. I quoted it earlier...for evil to exist, so must the capacity to fight evil. Foul = evil; TC = capacity to fight.

So TC can't become Foul in a strict sense, i.e, he can't become another Despiser, because then he wouldn't be his true self. If he became another Despiser, he would only be one side of the coin again.

The question before us really is: what does SRD mean by this? What happens when both sides of the same coin, that are now apparently separate, meld to become one again? What will that melding represent? A new Arch of Time? We know that there will be a new universe.

[King Elessar 8]

Spoiler

Donaldon has remarked recently that that ,yes, Covenant becomes Foul in the Last Chronicles, but that it doesnt mean what it sounds like. So its a bit of a misdirection on his part - essentially true, but we cant know exactly what the author has in mind until we get there.

[UrLord]

as I suspected

[High Lord Tolkien]

Hello there.
Just finished the new book.
Awesome!
Can't wait to exchange thoughts with you people.

In response to the "why doesn't Foul use Joans ring" I thought it was because the ring has to be given *freely* for the reciever to be able to use wild magic. That's why Kasreyn was going through such elaborate lengths to unlock TC mind. Just taking the ring would have been worthless to him. Joan is too far gone (insane) to give the ring to anybody.

[Plains of Ra]

Ranyhyn... they completely sickened me in this book...

I loath them. How can you still have respect for them?

I fear this will not go well for you.