beren

[arwenavery]

beren gets two fingers chopped off in the tale of tinuviel ( tolkien) just wondered if donaldson ever made reference to berek halfhand was in any way was inspired by beren ..halfhand???

[Bannor]

Never got that connection before, but I have little doubt that SRD borrowed that from Tolkien (I mean,look at the names: Beren and Berek). I wonder if SRD borrowed in tribute (a compliment) to Tolkien. Certainly, every author borrows from someone he/she admires. I cannot imagine using a name or device from another author that I didn't like. Good research and thinking, Arwenavery.

[Hearthcoal]

I think that Berek Halfhand is a tribute (conscious or not) to Beren. Although if I am not mistaken, Beren lost his whole hand. When he recaptured one of the Silmarils, he had it clasped in his right hand and Morgoth's hound, Carcharoth, bit off and swollowed the whole hand. (That tale is a rousing one indeed. You owe it to yourself to read the Tale of Luthien and Beren!)

Beren, by the way, was a vegetarian!

There are scores of similarities between The Chronicles and Tolkien's work. We explored a few of them back on The Land vs. Middle Earth ROUND 1 and on stephen donaldson vs. tolkien (added this link after Bannor's reply, below).

But Tolkien's writing is not the only literature that receive homage of sorts from SRD. We explored the imagery/symbolism found in SRD's writing on
Imagery/Symbolism in CTC & other SDR writing.

But these are rich topics that I don't think have been mined out yet. The all has not been said.

[Bannor]

Hearthcoal, I went to both of the links and found them very interesting. Thanks.

[danlo]

Damm! I totally 4got about the Tale of Luthien and Beren--that was 1 of THE most beautiful things I've ever read **drops copy of Neverness, begins shuffling around top drawer looking 4 Barnes & Noble gift card in order 2 go buy Silmarillion 2mrrw**

[arwenavery]

your dead right hearthcoal....his whole hand was bitten off , but im sure ( ill readup again ) wasnt there an ammedment made early on in the text referring to Beren as losing two fingers.....it was when he was originally written as an elvish character ...removing 2 fingers in medieval england was to torture archers ...so they could not fight back ( hence the F u , 2 fingered salute)

i could be wrong though!!!

[berencamlost7]

Yes Donaldson definitely owed a debt to Tolkien. Thank The Creator he didn't steal whole plot lines like Terry Brooks.

[Skyweir]

mmm .. grrrr .. grumble mumble razzle frazzle ...

there's not an author alive that hasn't borrowed or adapted ideas that originated some where other than them ..

Ideas that have been around for generations .. ie Norse and Greek mythology ..

.. similarities sure but entirely different also ..

.. and yeah I am no Terry Brooks fan either .. Donaldson is an entirely different league ..

.. sorry folks .. just one of my pet hates raising its ugly head ..

[danlo]

Beren I warned u @ Ahira's Hangar never 2 mention Brooks, Eddings or Jordan over here on the Watch! But did u listen 2 me? NOOOOOOOOO

[Skyweir]

sad isnt it??

.. there are respectable fellow Watchmen that do enjoy Brooks Jordan and Eddings even ..

I'm just not one of 'em ..

Definitely like GRR Martin though ..

Beren you're clearly a Watchmen with exceptional literary tastes ..

[berencamlost7]

Skyweir - I know what you mean re themes. Its just that Sword and Lord are practically the same book. Now that's a bit more than adapting a Norse Myth.

Danlo -

Sorry there friend. I apologise

[berencamlost7]

Arwenavery -

Doesn't Camlost mean empty handed ? Bloody hell I should know this !!
In which case I think you'll find Beren lost more than 2 fingers. But I feel in general Berek and Berens story's have some similarity, just not sure how many fingers are involved

[arwenavery]

i had just begun the book of lost tales at the post i made...it was a hastily put together thought ,spontaneously after reading the sillmarillion....im always doing that..getting carried away....

dont get me wrong..i love donaldson and TC .....its just that sometimes names places events come up in tolkiens work which are unmistakeable!!!!
it bugs me how people who`ve never read both books ( ie. friends of mine ) are hell bent on creating arguments on donaldson copying tolkien, thats not what i believe , i know theres no way after reading tolkien you couldnt be inspired and sub-conciously hold certain facts at the back of your mind, also there could be a chance that donaldson intended to pay tribute in a subtle way to tolkien!!!! well we`ll never know....

[Skyweir]

Donalson openly admits in one of his forwards .. that Tolkien was a major factor in his choosing to be an author much to his fathers chagrin .. clearly he read his works and was moved and inspired by them ..

as Tolkien himself was with CS Lewis .. his friend and mentor ..

[Wounded Moose]

Well Beren wasn't really a vegetarian...

He still ate the flesh of his slain enemies: orcs, trolls,etc.

Just thought u should know

[Landwaster]

Just found this discussion while browsing. In summation : Berek halfhand links to Beren of Tolkien's world as Beren lost two fingers.

I was just going to add another correlation :

Wasn't the local doc in town a dr Berenford? Or do I have that wrong?

[Skyweir]

I think it was Berensford .. but i could be wrong

there was only the slightest suggestion of correlation between Beren and Berek .. and that was inside TC's head ..

TC made that correlation .. when he mis-overheard the bar singers refering to him ..

damn .. my memory is still regrettably flakey on this too!!

it may have been a inter-dimensional manipulation tho' ..

[Landwaster]

What did she call him in the nightclub? I mean, what did she claim she called him? I can't remember. Did she say that she said 'Beren'?

If so, then there's another connect.

[Skyweir]

TC believed he heard her say Berek .. but she said no .. she said Beren ..

so whether the connection was simply in TC's mind .. being somewhat obsessed with his experience from 2 stand-points .. wanting to deny the Land .. and seeking for some surety of its existence ..

if TC did simply misunderstand her from this stand point .. then the connection is one of his own making .. as calling a man named Beren in a nightclub .. and mistaking it for Berek .. isnt such a profound connection imho ..

though it could be .. anythings possible ..

if i was SRD i'd play up on this relationship in the 3rd chrons .. just to affirm or play on the uncertainty of the other world relationship to our own ..

just for kicks!

[Landwaster]

Yeah I was just referring to what is now three things in the TC books which might be drawn to have been inspired by the Beren story of Tolkien :

- Berek (halfhand, as was Beren of Beleriand - Tolkien)
- Beren (the name of the singer's actual friend)
- Berensford - longer bow but still.