Sunder- A Worthy Successor to H L Mhoram?/ Gov't of the Land

[Fist and Faith]

I don't see that there is a Land-wide government. Everybody seemed to be working together, in the service of the Land. For the most part, everybody helped in whatever ways they could. Even in Kevin's day, the people were free and giving. The Haruchai army, bent on conquering, were met with hospitality everywhere they went. It doesn't seem that anybody is needed to be in charge and tell them to play nice.

The Ramen were a different story, though. But Prothall didn't attempt to order them around.

[[Syl]]

Still, though, there were lords and a high lord. Nothing says feudalism more than that title... ok, maybe serf does, but you know what I mean. The thing is, it's fantasy, and fantasy is all about kings (high lord), castles (Revelstone), knights(bloodguard), lords(um, lords), etc etc. It's an inherently classist medium... romanticized British stuff, basically. Blame Arthur, Tolkein, and so on. Still, The Land does seem quite a bit more egalitarian than most fantasy realms... maybe somewhat of a Plutocracy with Earthpower being the coin of the land, so to speak.

[Furls Fire]

The Land's magic to me was the fact that there was no famine, poverty, crime, selfishness..etc. Everyone lived for the service of the Land. In the first chrons anyway. I don't think the Lords were "rulers" per se. They were more "wardens" Striving to gain knowledge to better serve the Land and it's people. The Oath of Peace was the "Law" with which all in the Land lived by. At least with the New Lords. Tho, I tend to believe that the Old Lords had something similiar. Yet, at one time, there was a "Monarchy" of sorts in the Land as well, with the King and Queen. And the King was seduced by the Raver. Which led to Berek becoming the Lord-Fatherer and the service to the Earthpower....

[duchess of malfi]

To me the government of the Land always seemed more of a meritocracy than anything else, sort of like in Old China where civil servants had to go through examinations...(of course you still had the Emporer, etc. as a layer above them).

[Fist and Faith]

I think the Lords are highly respected by all, for their knowledge and their commitment. All know that the Earthpower is there, and that it is important in their lives. They know that the Lords have more knowledge about it than the average person does, and that, if they say there's a problem, they're probably right. So let's get to work!

But I don't think the Lords have the ability, authority, or desire, to order people around who are not going to do what is needed anyway. There's no punishment for not doing what a Lord tells you, so they can't be "in charge" in the sense of our governments and police.

And the High Lord, as we've seen, doesn't even much order the other Lords around. But any group needs someone to make the decision when it's not unanimous.

[KaosArcana]

Fist and Faith:

But I don't think the Lords have the ability, authority, or desire, to order people around who are not going to do what is needed anyway. There's no punishment for not doing what a Lord tells you, so they can't be "in charge" in the sense of our governments and police.

And the High Lord, as we've seen, doesn't even much order the other Lords around. But any group needs someone to make the decision when it's not unanimous.

The only organized human military force in the Land, the Warward,
is answerable to the High Lord.

And when Atirian was bringing Covenant to the Lords to deliver his
message, she said that she hoped the Lords punished him for what
had happened to the Wraiths (I don't think she expressed a desire
for them to punish him on Lena's behalf).

In general, though, the Land seems to be devoid of any kind of
government as we've known in this world ... and they apparently
don't have people who suffer from mental illness and are a danger
to themselves or others ... or people who act out of malice or greed
or envy so their form of government works for them.

[Fist and Faith]

Regarding Lena, Atiaran says:

"And Lena my daughter-! Ah, I pray that the Lords will punsh - punish!"

But later she says:

"Since the Celebration - sice you permitted Wraiths to die - this blade has cried out for your blood. Other crimes I could set aside. I speak for my own. But that-! To countenance such desecration-!"

But that doesn't matter, because we know darned well the Lords weren't going to punish him anyway. And they wouldn't have punished anybody else for those crimes either. It's just not how things work in the (1st Chron) Land.

[danlo]

"meritocracy" Outstanding Duchess! That's a word you don't see everyday! Hail Revelwood! (and, yeah, what they ^ said... )

[Skyweir]

or even ever lol

a meritocracy would be the most accurate and acutely representative of a socitey the kind the Lands is.

a very clever classification .. and I think syl. makes a valid point about the Lords role in Revelstone.

The Lords where the highest authority in the Land .. recieving the respect due them from all other inhabitants .. and there role also extended to that of a conflict resolution body too.

Each race had its own management body .. I am thinking of the guy that tested TC with the lillianrill thing ..

my memory is poor .. and i forget its exact name .. or the name of the test itself ..

but there is some sort of 'judement' and dispute resolution .. happening .. but the methodology is greatly different to our world notions.

[danlo]

...it was simply called "the test of the lomillialor".

[Seafoam Understone]

OUTSTANDING discussion.
Should be in a topic all it's own... the Land's Government (request thread split)

From dictionary.com
meritocracy: A system in which advancement is based on individual ability or achievement.

1. A group of leaders or officeholders selected on the basis of individual ability or achievement.
2. Leadership by such a group.

I too saw (but had no name until...Duchess gave it) the Land's overall governing system the same way. Thanks Duchess.
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Fist and Faith said: I don't see that there is a Land-wide government. Everybody seemed to be working together, in the service of the Land. For the most part, everybody helped in whatever ways they could. Even in Kevin's day, the people were free and giving. The Haruchai army, bent on conquering, were met with hospitality everywhere they went. It doesn't seem that anybody is needed to be in charge and tell them to play nice.
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True, this can be compared with the tribalism described by Daniel Quinn in his books (Ishmael, The Story of B, My Ishmael, and Beyond Civilization).

F&F: The Ramen were a different story, though. But Prothall didn't attempt to order them around.

Right because he respected their right to want to tend only to the Ranyhyn. To hell with everything/body else and we'll kill/hate anyone who tries to hurt these magnificent animals. If they didn't want to help then they would've been held blameless (except by Covenant of course).
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Sylvanus replied: Still, though, there were lords and a high lord. Nothing says feudalism more than that title... ok, maybe serf does, but you know what I mean. The thing is, it's fantasy, and fantasy is all about kings (high lord), castles (Revelstone), knights(bloodguard), lords(um, lords), etc etc. It's an inherently classist medium... romanticized British stuff, basically.

SRD (IMO) saw that regardless of the "everyone working together" theme of the Land there still had to be some sort of authoritarian figure(s) to settle disputes (as wont of human nature) and as F&F mentions later "someone to make a decision when it's not unanimous" in this case the Lords who devoted much more of their time/energies studying Kevin's Lore..and simply there are people who just rather not rule at all. So "somebody" has got to be in charge here... why not them?" "cool I'm fine with that...how about you?" "yeah, yeah whatever, lets get back to work...I gotta family to feed."
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It also allows the authoritian figure to met out punishment when/where needed. Atiaran seeks justice and hopes the Lord will do it. Rightly so.
F&F stated: But that doesn't matter, because we know darned well the Lords weren't going to punish him anyway. And they wouldn't have punished anybody else for those crimes either.

I disagree, the council at Soaring Woodhelven gave Covenant the test of the lornillialor, the high wood and "it rejected him" and they were ready to kick him outta their tree had not he revealed the WGR (???). I think had the Lords at Revelstone been informed of the crime against Lena they probably would've banished him at least.
I can't recall ( ) if the cells where Brinn, Ceer and the others were held by the Clave were actually (jail) cells or converted rooms. But Covenant had SRD wrote the other way... might've been held prisoner in one of those rooms instead of being a guest. Figuring where they put him with Bannor guarding him and the fact that the first room locked him IN before Mhoram could "feel him out"... it was a form of (unknowing) punishment considering TC's vertigo.
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KaosArcana points out: The only organized human military force in the Land, the Warward, is answerable to the High Lord.

And rightly so, they were there to Protect and to serve. A larger body of force to meet the size of the threat (best as they could). Indivdual clusters of people (towns?? Stonedowns, etc.) were seemingly free to govern/litigate on their own.
Likewise as Furl said: The Oath of Peace was the "Law" with which all in the Land lived by. A good law btw...it helps me out in my Martial Arts.

The Land, the people and the Lords and the wonderful meritocracy seems to appeal to many readers. I for one wouldn't mind living in such a society so long as justice is met out properly.

[Fist and Faith]

Here ya go, dlb.

(I miss KaosArcana)

[The Dreaming]

Under other circumstances, I think Sunder could have
become a High Lord great enough to rival Mhoram and
the other greats.


So, Go Sunder Go! You da man!

Sunder was probably my favorite character in II chrons. His importance in The Wounded Land at least was huge. He was probably the only person in all of these books who had felt the same losses as Covenant. What he provides for Covenant is truly unique and I completely understand how Covenant became so attached to him.

When Hollian died, I couldn't believe that even Donaldson could go that far. Nothing in any of the books made me feel as much sorrow as her death and Sunder's reaction to it. The entire part of the WGW where he is dragging her corpse around chilled me to the bone.

[Xar]

I agree... and I find it wonderful that in the end, both he and Hollian - who had had the courage to turn their backs to the Sunbane and the Rede, in pursuit of an alleged truth of which Covenant was the only dispenser, and a vision which only Covenant bore - in the end entered communion with the Earthpower itself in a way which no one - living or dead - had been able to do before, that we know of. In a way, it is as if the Earthpower itself had decided to bless them for the faith they had had in Covenant even despite the Sunbane and the evil lies of the Clave.

[HighLordKevin]

Sunder was DA BOMB!!

[matrixman]

Wow, great thread I missed! Terrific discussion about government in the Land you guys had here!

The Land, the people and the Lords and the wonderful meritocracy seems to appeal to many readers. I for one wouldn't mind living in such a society so long as justice is met out properly.

Yes, the Land's egalitarianism was as inspiring to me as its natural wonders. It may be all make-believe, but the society of the Land (of the first Chronicles) made a lot of sense--common sense. Which there never is enough of in the "real" world.

As for Sunder, I have nothing but praise for him (and for Hollian). Sunder would definitely have made for a worthy successor to High Lord Mhoram. But the "equal" of Mhoram? I wouldn't go so far as to say that.

[Lord Mhoram]

Wow! Old thread. Where has KaosArcana been lately?! And did he ever register

Matrixman,

As for Sunder, I have nothing but praise for him (and for Hollian). Sunder would definitely have made for a worthy successor to High Lord Mhoram. But the "equal" of Mhoram? I wouldn't go so far as to say that.

As far as skills go, Mhoram surpasses Sunder in nearly every area, in my opinion. Including sheer wisdom. In many respects, they are equal in the adversity they must have faced in their tenure as leaders of the Land; but we just don't know enough about Sunder's "reign." I doubt that Sunder had to fight the battles Mhoram fought, but there is one interesting parallel: As Mhoram brought the Land through the transition away from the Oath of Peace, Sunder brought the transition from Sunbane, to post-Sunbane. It's been a while since I've read the books (!) but didn't they both wield the krill as well?

They will both, regardless of who is "better," be regarded, at least as long as we the readers can remember, as great leaders of the Land.

[matrixman]

I doubt that Sunder had to fight the battles Mhoram fought, but there is one interesting parallel: As Mhoram brought the Land through the transition away from the Oath of Peace, Sunder brought the transition from Sunbane, to post-Sunbane.

Nice observation!

It's been a while since I've read the books (!) but didn't they both wield the krill as well?

Yes, they both did. Now that I think about it, the very fact that Sunder wielded the krill puts him in very select company, because how many people in the history of the Land have ever used the krill? Just four that I know of: Loric, Mhoram, Covenant and Sunder. I think that should make Sunder an honorary Lord, just as Covenant is ur-Lord. The krill is like a badge of Lordly royalty, as the Staff of Law is. Kind of an Excalibur-King Arthur thing going on?

[Lord Mhoram]

MM,

Yes, they both did. Now that I think about it, the very fact that Sunder wielded the krill puts him in very select company, because how many people in the history of the Land have ever used the krill? Just four that I know of: Loric, Mhoram, Covenant and Sunder. I think that should make Sunder an honorary Lord, just as Covenant is ur-Lord. The krill is like a badge of Lordly royalty, as the Staff of Law is. Kind of an Excalibur-King Arthur thing going on?

Good point It would seem that the krill is a mark of not only honor, but authority in the Land. I hope we learn more about that dagger in the Last Chronicles. Like: What happened to it during all those millennia between Loric and Mhoram? Where does its power come from? The gem that reacts to wild magic? And so on.

And I agree, I'd put Sunder in Mhoram's company, but perhaps not above him.

[MrKABC]

In adding to the above post:

Sunder not only wielded the Krill of Loric (making him one of the select few people in the Land's history to do so) but he also held the Staff of Law, an honor even High Lord Mhoram didn't have.

HOWEVER, Sunder's largest failure IMHO was his lack of vision in setting up some sort of government for the Land (like a Council of Lords) and a succession plan for the Staff and the lore he learned for its use.

While I recognize that in the Land's history there was a lot of nepotism in its governance (and control of the original Staff) at least Berek Heartthew had set up some form of stable government that passed the test of millennia (and the Desolation that followed).

Therefore, MHORAM is better than SUNDER.