Is Death the only Answer?

[ur-bane]

Recently, I began reading Runes. And, as with the First and Second chronicles, the underlying SRD theme of "dying to save" is ever-present.

Is death truly the only answer to Despite?
Is there really no other solution than self-sacrifice to triumph over Despite?

Not to mention that it is only a temporary solution, anyway.
Every encounter and triumph over Despite diminishes him, but in the end, Despite always returns to the Land, stronger and more cunning than before.

I for one want to see the road to success paved with the stones of life, not the boulders of death.

[High Lord Tolkien]

Yeah, I really want to see Linden do what she says when she talked to Foul. Really kick the crap out of him. Kill him for good. I know it's been said that you can't kill Despite. But who said it? Non-weilders of the Wild Magic that's who and Covenent bought into the idea. Linden might not be so restrictive. It would be different anyway.

[UrLord]

This is what I've been thinking: Donaldson wrote the First Chronicles thinking of it as being the complete story of Covenant vs. Despite. Sacrifices were made, but in the end Covenant comes out whole. Then he simultaneously came up with the ideas for the Second and Last Chronicles, which were intended to broaden and unify the entire thing. I think that the First Chronicles are going to end up being in miniature a reflection of all three Chronicles...If you think about it, there are a lot of parallels between each book in the First Chronicles and its corresponding series. I'll throw in here a few I've thought of.

The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant as Lord Foul's Bane: Both end in victory for the people of the Land, but it's far from complete triumph (as we learn later)

The Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant as The Illearth War: Enormous evil might fuels Foul as he ravages the Land with his sunbane/Giant Ravers + illearth stone. False hopes abound, and victory comes at a very high price.

The Last Chronicles as The Power that Preserves: Ah, speculation. Look at the Haruchai. In TPTP, the Bloodguard realize that their definition of pure service is flawed, or perhaps simply that they are unworthy of their own expectations of themselves...

[[Syl]]

Looking at the title of the thread made me think of something else. Namely, does anyone think Linden's a little too convinced she's going to die? Sure, she's a doctor and might know a fatal wound when she sees one, but it's not like she's a long way from other people who can get her to a hospital. I'm just wondering if maybe she's a little too eager to go the way of Covenant.

[CovenantJr]

Yeah, I really want to see Linden do what she says when she talked to Foul. Really kick the crap out of him. Kill him for good. I know it's been said that you can't kill Despite. But who said it? Non-weilders of the Wild Magic that's who and Covenent bought into the idea. Linden might not be so restrictive. It would be different anyway.

It always seemed to me that Foul and Covenant are the opposite sides of a coin (or simlar "polar opposites" analogy) and as long as one exists, the other must too. Perhaps it's beyond even that. Perhaps Foul will exist as long as the capacity for good exists in the Land.

[brinn18]

good point covenantjr... that makes me wonder.... why is there no mention of Foul before the time of Kevin. Just a thought, but if Covenant and Foul are two sides of the same coin, maybe it is because Foul did not exist before Covenant was born.
Just wondering again, but time wise would the point in the lands history around where Foul appeared be around the same time covenant was diagnosed with Leprosy?

[ur-bane]

Looking at the title of the thread made me think of something else. Namely, does anyone think Linden's a little too convinced she's going to die? Sure, she's a doctor and might know a fatal wound when she sees one, but it's not like she's a long way from other people who can get her to a hospital. I'm just wondering if maybe she's a little too eager to go the way of Covenant.

I think there are several reasons for her "feeling."
First, she still has such a strong love and admiration of Covenant, and his demise in her "real" world is still fresh in her mind.

Also, now that Dr. Berenford is dead, who is going to care enough about her to save her? Certainly the police in that town don't give a damn, or they would have been more careful in the first place, instead of shooting like a firing squad.
Sheriff Lytton has been shot, and can be of no help himself.
Will Megan Roman find her way there? Or Harry Gund, since he wants to "make amends" for what happened to Joan? Possible, but doubtful.

I think her "knowledge" that she is going to die in the "real" world is well founded, from her point of view.

[dlbpharmd]

good point covenantjr... that makes me wonder.... why is there no mention of Foul before the time of Kevin. Just a thought, but if Covenant and Foul are two sides of the same coin, maybe it is because Foul did not exist before Covenant was born.
Just wondering again, but time wise would the point in the lands history around where Foul appeared be around the same time covenant was diagnosed with Leprosy?

I asked SRD in the GI once if the onset of Covenant's leprosy coorelated with the enacting of the Ritual of Desecration. SRD said that it made sense but he'd never thought about it before.

We certainly do no know when Foul was introduced to the Land. In my way of thinking, he was introduced shortly after Creation, but was "reduced" and it took time for him to recover to the point where he was strong enough to infiltrate the Council of Lords.

Caer Sylvanus wrote:
Looking at the title of the thread made me think of something else. Namely, does anyone think Linden's a little too convinced she's going to die? Sure, she's a doctor and might know a fatal wound when she sees one, but it's not like she's a long way from other people who can get her to a hospital. I'm just wondering if maybe she's a little too eager to go the way of Covenant.

I think there are several reasons for her "feeling."
First, she still has such a strong love and admiration of Covenant, and his demise in her "real" world is still fresh in her mind.

Also, now that Dr. Berenford is dead, who is going to care enough about her to save her? Certainly the police in that town don't give a damn, or they would have been more careful in the first place, instead of shooting like a firing squad.
Sheriff Lytton has been shot, and can be of no help himself.
Will Megan Roman find her way there? Or Harry Gund, since he wants to "make amends" for what happened to Joan? Possible, but doubtful.

I think her "knowledge" that she is going to die in the "real" world is well founded, from her point of view.

I believe that the sheriff deputies would have emergency care personnel there almost immediately, and Linden has a chance to be saved. And, assuming that Jeremiah survives his time in the Land and is returned to the "Real World," Linden would want to go with him to care for him.

[Aleksandr]

good point covenantjr... that makes me wonder.... why is there no mention of Foul before the time of Kevin.

Actually there is. The tale of Kelebhrabanal (sp?) which has a confrontation between Foul (the Render) and the Father of Horses takes place at some remote age, presumably even pre-Berek. Also, I think we are meant to interpret the “gray cloud” on the battlefield in the Legend of Berek as an avatar of Foul.

Also, now that Dr. Berenford is dead, who is going to care enough about her to save her?

Well, apart from the Sherrif it rather sounds as if the whole town is her fan club. And given the circumstances (a hostage situation, dead and injured people already resulting from Roger’s actions, and Roger himself still armed and dangerous) I would think they’d already have EMTs ready at some safe distance (maybe up by Haven Farm).
By the way, any idea as to how the Sherrrif guessed where Roger would be? Did the idiot finally put 2 and 2 together and associate Roger’s crime with the events of ten years before?

[dlbpharmd]

Actually there is. The tale of Kelebhrabanal (sp?) which has a confrontation between Foul (the Render) and the Father of Horses takes place at some remote age, presumably even pre-Berek. Also, I think we are meant to interpret the “gray cloud” on the battlefield in the Legend of Berek as an avatar of Foul.

YES! Thank you!

[CovenantJr]

I knew there was some Foul involvement in Berek's life, but I couldn't bring it to mind. Well done

[brinn18]

Thanks Aleksandr I had forgotten about that as well. Still time wise I wonder if the despisers manipulation of the Land corresponds with certain events in Covenants life.

[duchess of malfi]

By the way, any idea as to how the Sherrrif guessed where Roger would be? Did the idiot finally put 2 and 2 together and associate Roger’s crime with the events of ten years before?

Linden left a message for him, telling him to look there.

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

humm, well for one thing SRD seems to have a thing for making power too great to wield and survive...often he makes death a release, and generally rarely a waste. Except for most of Troy's army of course... I think it just comes down to the fact that the despiser is too powerful to be beaten without paying a price of somekind, usually in blood.

[Aleksandr]

I have a theory that perahps the crafting of the Staff of Law also brought about the incarnation of the Despiser, who previously was “just” a implicit psychic force, without specific embodiment. But I don’t think the timeline would work out for the tale of Kelenbhrabanal. The Ramen and Ranyhyn are already together in the Land by Kevin’s time, though there’s no mention of them in Berek’s Legend.

[duchess of malfi]

We have no idea when in the Land's timeline the story of the Father of Horses takes place, but is certainly has always sounded like a very old legend...certainly dates back before Kevin's time, and I wouldn't be surprised if it even goes back beyond Berek's.

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

I wonder who passed the story down... and by the way, while we're talking about the ranyhyn, I have to say the horserite description was pretty great.

[Sweet Brutha Numpsay]

I have a theory that perahps the crafting of the Staff of Law also brought about the incarnation of the Despiser, who previously was “just” a implicit psychic force, without specific embodiment. But I don’t think the timeline would work out for the tale of Kelenbhrabanal. The Ramen and Ranyhyn are already together in the Land by Kevin’s time, though there’s no mention of them in Berek’s Legend.

Yet.

[brinn18]

I have a theory that perahps the crafting of the Staff of Law also brought about the incarnation of the Despiser, who previously was “just” a implicit psychic force, without specific embodiment. But I don’t think the timeline would work out for the tale of Kelenbhrabanal. The Ramen and Ranyhyn are already together in the Land by Kevin’s time, though there’s no mention of them in Berek’s Legend.

thats a good point. It made me think of how the one forest use to cover the entire land... if that was so, then where would the Ranyhyn have been? As the plains of Ra would have been trees.

[Xar]

Well, the "whole Land" might not be intended literally... maybe the Plains of Ra were not forest by that time, regardless of the condition of the rest of the Land. Anyway, as for Foul, a Raver was the possessor of the King of Berek's legend - and Ravers existed by the time of the Old Forest, well before Berek's age. We don't know when Foul actively enlisted the Ravers as his servants, but personally, I think Foul was an active entity in the world well before Berek. Perhaps he spent his time before that age by learning of the world and planning how to break the Arch and free himself.

I also like the theory that once cast down, he was diminished and needed to replenish his strength, however.

I wonder... if the Raver had never possessed the King, then maybe Berek would have never become the Earthfriend... so there would have been no Staff of Law, and the Law wouldn't have been "embodied" in it (which made it more vulnerable to outside influence, as we saw in the Chronicles). Also, we wouldn't have had Lords and the Earthpower might have gone undiscovered (after all, it had been unknown until Berek's time, it could have been undiscovered for much longer if there had not been war). Stretching it a bit, it means that it would have been impossible to summon wild magic into the Land (the first summonings needed the Staff of Law, and Earthpower at any rate, and I always thought that the summonings of the Second and Last chronicles were only possible to Foul because he already knew who to summon and how to reach him/her).

Since Foul's goal thus far always was to use white gold to break the Arch, maybe if the Raver had not possessed the King, Foul would have never been able to summon white gold into the Land, and would have never been able to escape. He could have destroyed the Land, enslaved or killed everyone, ruled on a wasteland, but could not escape...

A wild theory, as I said