Lets talk about Faith

[birdandbear]

Fist and Faith said:

It seems to me that, from a certain perspective, those who truly believe their faith don't need courage....It's hard to fault anyone who doesn't have the courage to stand up to torture for their faith.

Faith has always been a very ambiguous concept for me. I was raised in a devoutly Church of Christ household in the belt buckle of the Bible Belt. When I was a kid I believed what I was taught to believe, and was content in my faith. But when I got old enough to reason for myself, I naturally started to question my beliefs. Or more prescicely, my faith.
My primary dilemma was this: did I really believe the things I was taught, or did I just want to believe? Was there a difference? Was my faith invalidated by my doubt? How do you know if your faith is pure?


Well that was a long time ago, and I have settled somewhat comfortably with different beliefs than I was brought up with. But I've never been able to come up with an answer to faith. What exactly is Faith anyway? Where are the lines between belief/faith/knowledge?


According to www.merriamwebster.com, Faith is defined as:

1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs


Good definitions, all. But inadequate to me. It seems to me that it's more than that. Faith, or at least the capacity for faith, is a fundamental condition of the human spirit. It is as integral a part of being human as walking upright, or opposable thumbs. It is part of the anatomy of the soul. And as such, it is no more definable, really, than the soul itself.

But the fun part is trying anyway right?

So what's your take on Faith? What is it? What is the difference between belief and faith and knowledge? How does it define our humanity? (I know implicitly that it does; I have faith, if you will - but I absoloutely lack the eloquence to explain how.)

What makes a martyr capable of calmly walking to his own fire?

Does faith inspire courage? Or does courage induce faith?

I think Mhoram knew Faith intimately. To fight as hard as you can, for as long as you can, with no doubt that you will lose sooner or later; and yet to make your utterly futile sacrifice anyway, because what you serve deserves no less than every last drop of your blood, your love - to me that is the essence of faith.

I have tried very hard to avoid becoming lost in my own beliefs on this. This is another attempt to look objectively at something that is subjective in it's very nature.


I really hope this makes some sense to you guys. I had a terrible time trying to frame my questions in the right context.

[Fist and Faith]

I don't have time to write just this moment. (Gotta leave for work in a minute.) But I think the topic is a very good one, and I think you underestimate your own eloquence by a long shot! Great post!:)

[fightingmyinstincts]

My definition of Faith is pretty simple; simple to the point of simple mindedness, really. I think faith is the ability to believe at least somewhat wholeheartedly in something that means a lot to you that you could not prove in court. So, basically, faith is the ability to believe strongly in something important. No one has scientifically proved the existence of any God so far as I know and it would be demeaning to faith it such a thing came to pass. I think I'd try to keep the knowledge of it from myself if I heard someone had proved it one way or the other...Without belief, religion isn't that important. If you knew God was waiting to take care of you when you die, death wouldn't be scary, and everyone save fools would be religious. It would take a bit of choice away, and a lot of soulsearching. Soulsearching is a big word on another board I'm part of, basically it means looking closely at your own truths and beliefs and maybe finding some new ones, and also kinda cleaning mental house at the same time. And that's important; I believe faith without soulsearching is blind...

Great post, b&b!

[Fist and Faith]

To keep things TCTC related, if only for a moment, the Haruchai are people of absolute faith. In themselves. I'm certain that if a Haruchai had to fight a Sandgorgon, he would go to battle convinced that he was going to win. No fear, no doubt. He would remember any mistakes that Ceer and Hergrom made, and he would be out to prove himself more worthy than them. (Yeah, right!) Even if he was killed, his last thought would be of what his next attack is going to be, his faith remaining true right up to the moment of death.

Regarding religious faith, as I've said, I have none. I was brought up going to Presbyterian Sunday school, and occasionally staying for church with the adults. Then, when I was about 10, I heard someone say that the only reason people believe in God is because they're afraid of going to Hell if they don't. I knew immediately that this was a rather narrow-minded thing to say - what I now assume to be what might be called a "bitter atheist" attitude. If not that, it's at least very ignorant. But what's more important, to me, is that this was the first time I ever heard the concept of NOT believing! I hadn't heard anyone suggest that there was NOT any God, and the thought had never occurred to me. I always took my parents' and teachers' word for it. But now I learned that it was a matter of belief, and faith.

And I knew instantly that I didn't have any. I could quote this or that from the Bible, and knew the general ideas, but I didn't feel anything for it. It was just words to me. I never had any sort of bad experience with Christianity, or religion in general, I just didn't feel anything about it.

It seems to me that faith is stronger when you know other options; that if you examine several ways, and think one stands out among the others, your faith is somehow stronger, or better, or deeper, or something.

Anyway, at the other end of the spectrum from me are people like Bannor and Hearthcoal. They have what looks from their posts to be absolute faith in their God. The reason I'm not interested in debates with people who believe as they do is because, for me, religious faith is one of the possible paths to happiness. Human beings all have psychological needs. We have fears and desires that need to be addressed. And unanswered/unaddressed needs can be trouble. Religious faith is one way to address these needs, and I have no desire to take it from anyone. (Which is not usually possible anyway.) I hope everybody finds the answers they need to be happy, and don't care if their answers work for me. (I just wish so many people's answers didn't require that they hurt others.) These needs are not of a scientific nature, so the answers that anyone finds will always be a matter of faith of one sort or another anyway.


fightingmyinstincts,
I don't see the same problem that you do with having certain knowledge. Some think that Lucifer was a glorious being who lived with God. But Lucifer decided that he didn't want to follow God anymore. He did not have faith that God's way was the best. Knowing that Bannor & Hearthcoal's God exists doesn't mean I would follow.

[Infelice]

I think Mhoram knew Faith intimately. To fight as hard as you can, for as long as you can, with no doubt that you will lose sooner or later; and yet to make your utterly futile sacrifice anyway, because what you serve deserves no less than every last drop of your blood, your love - to me that is the essence of faith.

I agree that Mhoram was intimately acquainted with his faith. However I believe that people who have complete faith fight knowing that whatever the outcome, they will not be defeated, rather , they will triumph. To admit defeat or the possibility of defeat, is to lose faith.
As in the Haruchai example put forth by F&F - the faith of the Harchai is such that they do not comtemplate defeat. Their faith requires them to do whatever is within their capabilities to achieve victory and they do so with the utmost conviction.

I'm inclined to agree the your views F&F. Each individual comes with their own indiviual strengths and weaknesses, needs and wants, physically and psychologically. Groups of individuals can claim to have similar needs and one of the ways these needs may be satisfied is by having faith in religious convictions.
My view is, that to acquire faith, you need to look inwardly at yourself and try to define what you're all about, identifying what you need to attain happiness and fulfillment - so that at the end of the long, hard battle, you have 'faced the demon of your soul and you can claim victory.'

[[Syl]]

Somebody *please* remind me to read this thread fully when I return.

[The Leper Fairy]

Wow birdandbear! I'm so glad that someone thinks the way I do. It's nice to know.

My primary dilemma was this: did I really believe the things I was taught, or did I just want to believe? Was there a difference? Was my faith invalidated by my doubt? How do you know if your faith is pure?

My thoughts exactly! But I am only 15, hopefully I have a long time to figure things out for myself. My main dilema is, Do I believe because I am afriad of Hell? Am I afraid to declare myself an atheist because I am afriad of Hell? But if I am afraid, doesn't that mean I believe? It's confusing and I think if I think about it anymore, my brain will just pack up it's things and quit. Sometimes I am jealous of dead people because they know for sure. I wish I did, but I'm not at all anxious to die... in the least.[/quote]

[danlo]

The older I get the more often than not I have Faith--Faith is such an ethereal concept, it's so ez 2 lose sight of--but don't, whatever u do, don't. What do I have Faith in? None of ur bizness--but it's alot of really good things and the more I believe the happier I am! (It takes time, lots of time 2 develope real Faith and personal invincibility, ego and impatience have 2 b brought down about 5-6 notches b4 u can even have a glimmer of the real thing...)

[fightingmyinstincts]

Well, if the old testament, angry vengeful God and Heaven and Hell thing is true, then I'm going to hell and I'm proud of it. I mean, That God did horrible things to Job to prove a point! And yeah, he gives him way more camels and wives and sons at the end...but they're not the same ones, and what about the poor wives and camels that got blighted and crap? I'm not going to believe in a god who would damn me to eternal torment for little stuff...aside from theological incongruities, that's my main problem with that brand of christianity. The God is love, Jesus saves and all that brand of christianity is just fine...I wish more people would take that or any other nonhating kind of religion just so they would act like they have some sense...

[Worm of Despite]

This snippet from a John Lennon & Yoko Ono interview, in 1980 (the year he died), sums up many of my perceptions of religion and "faith".

PLAYBOY: "So Janov was a daddy for you. Who else?"
ONO: "Before, there was Maharishi."
LENNON: "Maharishi was a father figure, Elvis Presley might have been a father figure. I don't know. Robert Mitchum. Any male image is a father figure. There's nothing wrong with it until you give them the right to give you sort of a recipe for your life. What happens is somebody comes along with a good piece of truth. Instead of the truth's being looked at, the person who brought it is looked at. The messenger is worshiped, instead of the message. So there would be Christianity, Mohammedanism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Marxism, Maoism-- everything-- it is always about a person and never about what he says."
ONO: "All the 'isms' are daddies. It's sad that society is structured in such a way that people cannot really open up to each other, and therefore they need a certain theater to go to to cry or something like that."
LENNON: "Well, you went to est."
ONO: "Yes, I wanted to check it out."
LENNON: "We went to Janov for the same reason."
ONO: "But est people are given a reminder..."
LENNON: "Yeah, but I wouldn't go and sit in a room and not pee."
ONO: "Well, you did in primal scream."
LENNON: "Oh, but I had you with me."
ONO: "Anyway, when I went to est, I saw Werner Erhardt, the same thing. He's a nice showman and he's got a nice gig there. I felt the same thing when we went to Sai Baba in India. In India, you have to be a guru instead of a pop star. Guru is the pop star of India and pop star is the guru here."
LENNON: "But nobody's perfect, etc., etc. Whether it's Janov or Erhardt or Maharishi or a Beatle. That doesn't take away from their message. It's like learning how to swim. The swimming is fine. But forget about the teacher. If the Beatles had a message, it was that. With the Beatles, the records are the point, not the Beatles as individuals. You don't need the package, just as you don't need the Christian package or the Marxist package to get the message. People always got the image I was an anti-Christ or antireligion. I'm not. I'm a most religious fellow. I was brought up a Christian and I only now understand some of the things that Christ was saying in those parables. Because people got hooked on the teacher and missed the message."
PLAYBOY: "And the Beatles taught people how to swim?"
LENNON: "If the Beatles or the Sixties had a message, it was to learn to swim. Period. And once you learn to swim, swim. The people who are hung up on the Beatles' and the Sixties' dream missed the whole point when the Beatles' and the Sixties' dream became the point. Carrying the Beatles' or the Sixties' dream around all your life is like carrying the Second World War and Glenn Miller around. That's not to say you can't enjoy Glenn Miller or the Beatles, but to live in that dream is the twilight zone. It's not living now. It's an illusion."
PLAYBOY: "What is the Eighties' dream to you, John?"
LENNON: Well, you make your own dream. That's the Beatles' story, isn't it? That's Yoko's story. That's what I'm saying now. Produce your own dream. If you want to save Peru, go save Peru. It's quite possible to do anything, but not to put it on the leaders and the parking meters. Don't expect Jimmy Carter or Ronald Reagan or John Lennon or Yoko Ono or Bob Dylan or Jesus Christ to come and do it for you. You have to do it yourself. That's what the great masters and mistresses have been saying ever since time began. They can point the way, leave signposts and little instructions in various books that are now called holy and worshiped for the cover of the book and not for what it says, but the instructions are all there for all to see, have always been and always will be. There's nothing new under the sun. All the roads lead to Rome. And people cannot provide it for you. I can't wake you up. You can wake you up. I can't cure you. You can cure you."
PLAYBOY: "What is it that keeps people from accepting that message?"
LENNON: "It's fear of the unknown. The unknown is what it is. And to be frightened of it is what sends everybody scurrying around chasing dreams, illusions, wars, peace, love, hate, all that... it's all illusion. Unknown is what what it is. Accept that it's unknown and it's plain sailing. Everything is unknown... then you're ahead of the game. That's what it is. Right?"
(End of Interview)

[Ryzel]

What can I say about faith? Well for starters I guess I do not have it. I do not know why this is, actually, but much like Fist and Faith I just never felt that I had it and so I just do not have it.

I like to say that I do not have faith because I do not believe things that I cannot see for myself is right (and good), but then again there are many things that I believe in that I will never have the opportunity to see or witness myself. (I believe in atoms, for instance, although I have never seen one.)

But what I do believe is that the universe is a place of law, to use chronicle terminology. I just do not feel that any current descriptions of gods or whatever is likely to fill the place as the universal organiser. All of them seem to be a little too prone to human failings for my taste. (I want perfection.)

So I have no faith in the usual sense of the word, but there are several things I have faith in. They are just not religious things.

[pitchwife]

Inspiring post birdandbear! One of those that I read just before going to sleep and find myself answering an hour later...

What is the difference between belief and faith and knowledge?

Well, there is the temporal factor. Knowledge is facing the past, it's based on our experiences. Faith is looking forward into the future, it is about something that will happen.

Knowledge is rational. Faith may have a rational foundation but it is emotional/spiritual. I think faith is a special state of consciousness that gives huge powers and energy. It is some kind of state in which all the systems of the body, all the chemistry is functioning at a higher efficiency/capacity. One of the things that I allways wonder about is people that were healed from incurable diseases because they had faith, and it doesn't really matter what the object of faith is, whether it was god, or a doctor, or a certain therapy.

just my 2 cents
-pitch

[birdandbear]

Aw, you guys... y'all are too nice. I just thought it would make for a good discussion.

[Fist and Faith]

Excellent post pitchwife! I particularly like your first paragraph! I never thought about it that way.

[Dag son of Dag]

Faith should always be kept apart from reason. The two have nothing to do with each other, they`re two complete opposites. Reason is very nice and all to understand the physical reality we live in, but it`s not enough (for me, anyway).

I have biology at school, and we learn that sight and hearing and feeling and taste is nothing but our brain`s way of perceiving the world. Sight, that`s just waves of energy, and so is hearing. The world we see and hear is, in a way, an illusion because it isn`t really as we perceive it. The color green is nothing but rays with a particular bandwidth. So reason isn`t enough.

Faith is to believe in something that you can`t see, can`t hear and can`t feel physically. There`s something magic to faith, because it`s so abstract, and our world focuses so much on that which is "real," science and such. You can`t explain faith, and you can`t prove it. I believe in God because I believe in God.

[Fist and Faith]

As I said, I see religious faith as answering questions that we seem to need answered if we want to be happy. I have non-religious answers to these questions.

I agree that magic/the abstract/the irrational/imagination is important to us. For myself, these things are fulfilled in music, art, fantasy books, and things like that. But it can still be found in things like the sciences and math. Here's a quote from Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance that I've quoted before:

"Well, it's quite a bootstrap operation. It's analogous to the kind of hang-up Sir Isaac Newton had when he wanted to solve the problems of instantaneous rates of change. It was unreasonable in his time to think of anything changing within a zero amount of time. Yet it's almost necessary mathematically to work with other zero quantities, such as points in space and time that no one thought were unreasonable at all, although there was no real difference. So what Newton did was say, in effect, 'We're going to presume there's such a thing as instantaneous change, and see if we can find ways of determining what it is in various applications.' The result of this presumption is the branch of mathematics known as the calculus, which every engineer uses today. Newton invented a new form of reason..."

Einstein's leaps beyond what the world was certain was obvious and reasonable are other good examples of how the "real" world and the abstract combine.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to convince you that your faith is wrong, or unnecessary. I'm just showing how I view the world. I'm as happy that you found answers your way as I would be if you had found them my way.

[danlo]

Ryzel--(u unbeliever u! ) When I read ur post I kept hearing TC saying, "That's too easy" and got a supreme kick o/o it!

[Skyweir]

i think faith does inspire courage .. faith is more than 'belief' as pitch said ..

faith is many things to many people .. and to each one thing is common .. conviction ..

a 'muslim of faith' has faith in what he believes .. a 'christian of faith' has faith in what he believes .. a 'buddhist of faith' has faith in what he believes .. zenists of faith have faith in what they believe .. whatever your poison .. if you have faith in it .. then faith you have ..

faith can be categorised into 2 concepts .. who knows maybe even more .. it is what you believe in .. that you have faith in ..

and faith itself is a system of belief .. ie: there are many faiths representing their own unique systems of belief .. above are just 3 but there are countless faiths offering countless systems of belief.

[Worm of Despite]

Faith? I didn't believe in faith. I don't know
anybody who did. Bunch of hippies and cesspool salesmen!

Faith's the kind of thing where Napoleon, in Animal Farm, said, "There is virtue in a frugal lifestyle," while he was living it up! "Faith is strongest", is like saying "Who needs money? Forget it!" The people saying that, of course, are the ones making the big bucks and want to keep it that way. Faith never put food on this Foul's table. To me, faith's a man-made ideal--something folks get all doped up on, and they mess their priorities up when they place it on top of everything. Faith in what? Yourself? God? Faith doesn't get stuff done, way I see it; it just sits there and reassures you, whispers in your ear, that's all. Everybodyneeds that at some time in their life, I'm sure. But the "strongest" is action--to fix your problems--not faith that they will just end.

[Skyweir]

such a cynic for one so young .. ok so maybe u been around a few eons .. but ur still a cynical old codger

some people have faith in the virtues of a pursuit of wealth .. some might even die or at the very least sacrifice all for that pursuit .. but i wonder how many would