Roger Covenant. Perhaps a saviour of the land?

[Roynish]

At this stage only evil has been exposed. The linkage between Covenant and his son will be explored undoutedly. Does he covet the ring for other purposes.
Donaldson with his penchant for doomed characters perhaps does not hold out much hope for dear old Roger. But surely the genetic connection means something.
I am sure Roger will come in to the saga at some stage.
Joan is such a tragic figure I can't bear thinking about her. But perhaps some redemption is at hand. Then again I can see him wasting her away in endless despair. Donaldson is aware of the cruelty of life. Perhaps too aware.

[UrLord]

Roger and Joan remind me a lot of Morn and Holt Fasner from the Gap series...and as a result I see a lot of possibilities for redemption in Joan, but Roger, I believe, is wholly a creature of the Despiser.

[Revan]

No, I think Roger is going to be a very evil villian throughout. And one that is going to be very hard to kill. Regardless of how evil Roger is, Thomas won't kill him. Which is one reason Roger is a massive threat. I think that sometime in the next three books, Roger is going to gain some massive power that will make him even more of a threat.

No, he's no saviour at all.

[drew]

HIs old man wasn't much of a savior either at the first...what with all the raping, and private deals and such...
Don't forget, the Creator AND foul have a say about who gets summoned;
you never know, perhaps the creator has plans for Rogers, and Roger doesn't even know it.
It seems to me though, that a final confrontation may take place between Roger and Jeramiah...why else would the children of BOTH the ringwelders of the lands history be there?
A Father and Son showdown seems benieth Donaldson to me.

[Roynish]

HIs old man wasn't much of a savior either at the first...what with all the raping, and private deals and such...
Don't forget, the Creator AND foul have a say about who gets summoned;
you never know, perhaps the creator has plans for Rogers, and Roger doesn't even know it.
It seems to me though, that a final confrontation may take place between Roger and Jeramiah...why else would the children of BOTH the ringwelders of the lands history be there?
A Father and Son showdown seems benieth Donaldson to me.

I put up this thread as the obvious devils advocate. To pose the question if you like.
Roger seems like evil incarnate. SRD's style tends to keep them there.
Joan maybe will be redeemed.
Look the latest book is just an enjoyable retrip for me.
Roger however is a unknown quantity. Thats all.

[burgs]

I think this has been discussed before, but it's my belief that Roger is possessed by a Raver, and that's how he's controlling Joan. There's no question whatsoever that a fully returned TC would want to redeem his wife, even though today Linden has his heart. Why? Well, redemption is a huge, huge theme of SRDs work. I see Joan FINALLY being redeemed. Roger, I fear, will suffer the same fate as most who are occupied by a Raver.

[Revan]

No, I really don't think he is taken over by a Raver. I think he'll be just as evil without the Ravers to possess him.

[High Lord Tolkien]

No, I really don't think he is taken over by a Raver. I think he'll be just as evil without the Ravers to possess him.

I want to agree and it looks like it but, "evil"?
In my mind he's actually the most tragic.
A small boy(infant) taken away from his father probably without ever knowing why.
He did spend most of his early childhood with his grandparents too but then spent time in a commune surrounded by loonies.

This is pretty much all we see of TC's feeling towards his son.
From LFB Covenant's thoughts:
"But his son's infant face, so meticulously and beautifully formed, human and complete, had made his heart ache with love and pride-yes, pride, a father's participation in mystery."

PTP:
He could not stop. Her wound would not tolerate his futility. He saw too much of his lost son Roger in her bare shin.

There's a touch more in the WL but it's mostly a recap.

And now it looks like Roger's nuts.
Joan made a mistake when she abondonded Thomas.
Her madness was partially her own fault but Foul used that as an opening to ruin her.
With the scant info we have on Roger though he could be written as one of the most innocent victims of all.
And Thomas Covenants *WEAKEST LINK*!

Does anyone here really think that TC's is going to let anyone hurt his son?

I expect a wild ride.

[Satansheart Soulcrusher]

Thinking about Roger coming to the Land reminds me of what Covenant first said to Linden about Joan.

"There's only one way to hurt a man who's lost everything... give him back something broken"

[burgs]

Exactly.

[Satansheart Soulcrusher]

Roger is either mad or possessed by a Raver, or worse, he is just naturally evil.

[drew]

Roger has suffered in his short life. Denied his Fathers love, Lived in a crazy comune...lost his mothers love. He has certainly Known despair. Would the despiser need a raver to gain Roger...he's pretty good at working on peoples despair, and turning it into despite.


But; twice now, Foul has brought Covenant into to Land to serve him...but it backfired...twice. The difference this time, is that Roger knew...at least a little bit, of what he was getting into.

I'm losing faith in that boy until the very end.

[Roynish]

Roger is lucid but very creepy in the prologue. He knows something. Or is perhaps being informed by something.

i know we take a leap of fantasy faith with this book but how and why does Roger, Joan and Jerimiah get to the land.
Is Foul a summomer. I did not think he was. Until now.

[Tranthalar]

"He saw too much of his lost son Roger in her bare shin."

her bare shin??? what???

[ScrapOSamadhi]

One "test" we can try and apply to the various characters is to see if they are a (direct) tool of the Despiser. According to Chronicles dogma Foul can't use a tool to acomplish his aims directly because of the Necessity of Freedom (same as the Creator can't).

It is fairly clear Linden isn't his tool. He "helps" her somewhat but not enough to turn her into a tool.

Roger may or may not be a tool. He was used to gather the others together so Joan could summon them. This occured outside of the Land (and the Arch) so it may not apply to Foul's escape attempt - he was merely enabling, not causing.

Joan is a really hard case to judge. She is under the "soft" control of a Raver. He is tormenting her and the actions she happens to be taking against herself are causing the caesures. This may not be enough control to render her a tool (the Raver is presumably free to do or not do as Foul says), and appears to be careful not to completely dominate her will. This grey area may be why she can only cause relatively small damage rather than just unleshing the Wild Magic and destroying the Arch.

[Creator]

How about Roger as Lord FOUL!!

And Jeremiah as the Creator - two children of the Ringthanes; mortal enemies. And time travel is involved.

Perhaps at the end Jeremiah gets BOTH white gold rings and used them to Anchor the Arch of Time in the distant past of the Land.

Hmmmm ... makes my head hurt!!