It's quite clear that Hile chose the wrong plan to try to fight the Despiser.
So what should he have done? If he had a proper attitude instead of being very overconfident, what should Hile have done?
Thinking about it, I can't really think of too many strategies available, given the resources he had, without presuming, anyway, a degree of ability to change the military balance of power beyond what was likely possible at that level of social organization.
The only other strategy which comes to my mind is harassing the advance of Foul's army on Revelstone in hope of getting a shot at killing the Giant-Raver with the Staff of Law, then trying to withstand a siege if that fails.
(I will note that another problem with the Doom's Retreat Gambit now comes to mind--a patient foe could just seal the Land-end of the Retreat with a small force himself, while the rest of the army rips the land apart.)
What Should Hile Troy Have Done?
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Lord Wombat
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I am just re-reading TIW and one thing I just noticed that I had missed before...
Whenever someone gets summoned to the Land, when their summoner dies they get returned. But Hile Troy's summoner died and he remained in the Land. Is it because his summoner died during the attempt?
As for what HT should have done, I think dlbpharmd is right - he was doomed no matter what. Foul's army was simply too huge.
Whenever someone gets summoned to the Land, when their summoner dies they get returned. But Hile Troy's summoner died and he remained in the Land. Is it because his summoner died during the attempt?
As for what HT should have done, I think dlbpharmd is right - he was doomed no matter what. Foul's army was simply too huge.
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CovenantJr
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Yes, I think the point of Troy in narrative terms was to illustrate what happens when someone does what most of us were yelling at Covenant to do - get stuck in and fight Foul. In practical terms, there wasn't much he could have done. There's a line between daring and reckless, and Troy's plan fell on the wrong side, but I don't think any plan would have been very successful. The odds were simply too huge. The Lords fought to the best of their abilities, but they all knew that, ultimately, only Covenant and his ring could win it for them. Troy never stood a chance.
As for the death of his summoner: The general consensus around here seems to be that, because Atiaran effectively botched the job, she and Troy actually swapped places; she died in the fire that was about to consume Troy. Given that unexpected turn of events, it's entirely conceivable that Troy would have stayed in the Land until he died.
As for the death of his summoner: The general consensus around here seems to be that, because Atiaran effectively botched the job, she and Troy actually swapped places; she died in the fire that was about to consume Troy. Given that unexpected turn of events, it's entirely conceivable that Troy would have stayed in the Land until he died.
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CovenantJr
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I'm Murrin
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theDespiser
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well, what theyre saying is that atiarin and Troy actually physically traded places...
i hate gettin involved in these discussions because i dont have my books with me yet, so i cant look anything up, but didnt they find atiarins body burned really bad, with Troy?
i hate gettin involved in these discussions because i dont have my books with me yet, so i cant look anything up, but didnt they find atiarins body burned really bad, with Troy?
Think on that, and be dismayed
What do you do to a man who has lost everything?
Give him back something broken
What do you do to a man who has lost everything?
Give him back something broken
Hello Gang.
Am I the only one who thinks it odd that someone from The Land is named 'Kevin', yet someone from the 'real world' is named 'Hile'???
How many 'Hiles' do you know?
Just a thought. I've been drinking.
Jim
Am I the only one who thinks it odd that someone from The Land is named 'Kevin', yet someone from the 'real world' is named 'Hile'???
How many 'Hiles' do you know?
Just a thought. I've been drinking.
Jim
Only a person who has truly experienced the consequences of his/her own destructive actions is qualified to evaluate--is, indeed, capable of evaluating--his/her future actions in order to make meaningful choices between destruction and preservation. - SRD
It is a weird name, I grant. Could it be the male version of Hilary?
In terms of what he could have done (if you ignore the point that from a narative perspective he had to lose) then my feeling is that he needed to change the rules. By which I mean that the Land is pretty much a closed system, so you're stuck with what you've got...you've got mountains on three sides and sea on the other, so no outside help is apparently available. But is this necessarily true? Might it have been possible to get more assistance from the Haruchai? Or from whoever lives further West, or South of the Grey Desert? Or across the nearer areas of the Sea? With a couple of strong allies the Lords might have been better placed, and they had 40 years to look for them.
Also, and this may sound daffy, but what about a more aggressive strategy? An amphibious strke on Foul's Creche mght have been a serious blow to LF, particularly if his army was being assembled at Landsdrop and wasn't there to defend. Taking him on directly wouldn't work but collapsing the upper levels of the creche on his head might be interesting and possible with the Staff of Law...it wouldn't kill him but it would severely inconvenience his C&C capability.
In terms of what he could have done (if you ignore the point that from a narative perspective he had to lose) then my feeling is that he needed to change the rules. By which I mean that the Land is pretty much a closed system, so you're stuck with what you've got...you've got mountains on three sides and sea on the other, so no outside help is apparently available. But is this necessarily true? Might it have been possible to get more assistance from the Haruchai? Or from whoever lives further West, or South of the Grey Desert? Or across the nearer areas of the Sea? With a couple of strong allies the Lords might have been better placed, and they had 40 years to look for them.
Also, and this may sound daffy, but what about a more aggressive strategy? An amphibious strke on Foul's Creche mght have been a serious blow to LF, particularly if his army was being assembled at Landsdrop and wasn't there to defend. Taking him on directly wouldn't work but collapsing the upper levels of the creche on his head might be interesting and possible with the Staff of Law...it wouldn't kill him but it would severely inconvenience his C&C capability.
...but in the morning, I will be sober
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drew
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As far as attacking Foul's Creche, Troy may have wanted it, but the Lords would never have allowed it...Breaking the Oath and all.
I agree with Quisling about the last name thing...Troy was a millitary man, he was used to haveing his name reversesed--perhaps once he was healed after his summoning, when asked his name he said,"Hile, Troy"-He could have thought that he was in a millitary hospital at that point.
As far as his choices with his army, don't forget that in any summoning both the Despiser and the Creator seem to have a say--the Despiser chose Troy, knowing that he would ultimatly try take on more than he could possibly do, but the Creator knew that his choices would take him even farther--becoming a Forestal who served the Land for almost four thousand years
I agree with Quisling about the last name thing...Troy was a millitary man, he was used to haveing his name reversesed--perhaps once he was healed after his summoning, when asked his name he said,"Hile, Troy"-He could have thought that he was in a millitary hospital at that point.
As far as his choices with his army, don't forget that in any summoning both the Despiser and the Creator seem to have a say--the Despiser chose Troy, knowing that he would ultimatly try take on more than he could possibly do, but the Creator knew that his choices would take him even farther--becoming a Forestal who served the Land for almost four thousand years
It’s quite clear, with the benefit of hindsight, that Troy’s original plan wasn’t the ideal one. But he had no way of knowing that at the time. Neither did the Lords. It’s not as if Troy just imposed his plan on everyone. Elena and Mhoram and Quann were part of the process, too. If Fleshharrower’s army hadn’t been so very much larger than Troy had any way of expecting, which also led to Rue’s warning being delivered so late, Troy’s original plan would have worked a lot better.
Blaming Troy for not possessing complete information of what was going on in the Lower Land is completely unfair. It would be less unfair – though still ridiculous – to blame Mhoram for not getting some size of Foul’s forces while on his expedition to the Shattered Hills.
BTW, what’s with the general assumption that Troy failed? Wasn’t Fleshharrower’s army destroyed entirely? Didn’t Troy successfully draw it away from the Center Plains before they and Revelstone could be attacked? It’s hard to say that any other strategy could have produced a better outcome. He lost one Lord (Verement) and maybe half his outnumbered forces, but accomplished the total destruction of a much larger army without giving it any chance to lay waste to the populated parts of The Land.
As for the summoning, I have always believed as Murrin does that Troy did not return to the “real” world when Atiarin died because he was already dead.
Blaming Troy for not possessing complete information of what was going on in the Lower Land is completely unfair. It would be less unfair – though still ridiculous – to blame Mhoram for not getting some size of Foul’s forces while on his expedition to the Shattered Hills.
BTW, what’s with the general assumption that Troy failed? Wasn’t Fleshharrower’s army destroyed entirely? Didn’t Troy successfully draw it away from the Center Plains before they and Revelstone could be attacked? It’s hard to say that any other strategy could have produced a better outcome. He lost one Lord (Verement) and maybe half his outnumbered forces, but accomplished the total destruction of a much larger army without giving it any chance to lay waste to the populated parts of The Land.
As for the summoning, I have always believed as Murrin does that Troy did not return to the “real” world when Atiarin died because he was already dead.
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Satansheart Soulcrusher
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Troy's strategy was not the best strategy. It was the only strategy.
As Thaale pointed out, he lost half his army, but the Giant Raver and his entire army, despite its vastly superior size, was annihilated. Troy sacrificed himself and many of his own troops but achieved a victory that justified such losses.
It's just a shame that Fleshharrower's army was only a part of Foul's plan...
As Thaale pointed out, he lost half his army, but the Giant Raver and his entire army, despite its vastly superior size, was annihilated. Troy sacrificed himself and many of his own troops but achieved a victory that justified such losses.
It's just a shame that Fleshharrower's army was only a part of Foul's plan...
The Grey Slayer
troys army
from what I remember troy lost closer to 3/4 of his army. He started off with close to 20000 and was down around 5000 by the end.
but... I still agree that he didnt lose... I mean who else in the land would have thought of that. any other plan could only have been worse off for the land.
but... I still agree that he didnt lose... I mean who else in the land would have thought of that. any other plan could only have been worse off for the land.
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Satansheart Soulcrusher
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Dawngreeter
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Satansheart Soulcrusher
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There are one or two flaws in the plan but no doubt it would have been more effective than Troy's original strategy.
Personally I think he should have really worked on some form of primitive explosive for attaching to arrows, a la Army of Darkness, that way they could have done some real damage when / if it did come to a siege situation.
Personally I think he should have really worked on some form of primitive explosive for attaching to arrows, a la Army of Darkness, that way they could have done some real damage when / if it did come to a siege situation.
The Grey Slayer
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Satansheart Soulcrusher
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Thinking about it some more, did anyone wish he'd brought some proper weapons when he was summoned? Something along the lines of a tank platoon, a few Apache gunships and A-10's for air support, some entrenched artillery positions...
Such a large army, tightly packed together would be a ripe target for cluster bombs, MLRS, and strafing runs with the A-10's cannon. Even with a piece of the Illearth Stone, I doubt Fleshharrower could have withstood a barrage of 30mm DU shells raining down on him.
FFAR rockets from the helicopters would make short work of ur-viles, kresh, cavewights, and anything else for that matter. Soften up any particularly resilient targets with a couple of 500lb Paveway LGB's. And I'd like to see one of those Griffons take a Sidewinder missile up the tailpipe.
Meanwhile a submarine placed a few hundred miles offshore could launch a cruise missile strike against Foul's Creche. A small nuclear warhead might be needed to really bring the roof down though.
Forget about putting up a Word of Warning to block Doom's Retreat - air drop some area denial AP mines instead. Don't just hide out in Doriendor Corishev, mine it with Claymores. Don't go on a forced march, use APCs and helicopters to get there fast and still ready to fight. And remember, Fleshharrower's big attacks take hours to prepare. An artillery strike can be called in within minutes. By the time he's finished calling up a hurricane, it's all over - his army would be decimated by a barrage of shells, rockets, bombs, and every other form of battlefield munition. The Giant Raver and his few remaining ur-viles would find themselves surrounded by tanks, and while ur-vile vitriol can eat through flesh, I bet they never thought to test it against explosive reactive armour.
As an afterthought, I can't help thinking that a team of Delta operators might have made a good go at the quest for the Staff of Law.
Hey maybe I'm just fantasising now.
Such a large army, tightly packed together would be a ripe target for cluster bombs, MLRS, and strafing runs with the A-10's cannon. Even with a piece of the Illearth Stone, I doubt Fleshharrower could have withstood a barrage of 30mm DU shells raining down on him.
FFAR rockets from the helicopters would make short work of ur-viles, kresh, cavewights, and anything else for that matter. Soften up any particularly resilient targets with a couple of 500lb Paveway LGB's. And I'd like to see one of those Griffons take a Sidewinder missile up the tailpipe.
Meanwhile a submarine placed a few hundred miles offshore could launch a cruise missile strike against Foul's Creche. A small nuclear warhead might be needed to really bring the roof down though.
Forget about putting up a Word of Warning to block Doom's Retreat - air drop some area denial AP mines instead. Don't just hide out in Doriendor Corishev, mine it with Claymores. Don't go on a forced march, use APCs and helicopters to get there fast and still ready to fight. And remember, Fleshharrower's big attacks take hours to prepare. An artillery strike can be called in within minutes. By the time he's finished calling up a hurricane, it's all over - his army would be decimated by a barrage of shells, rockets, bombs, and every other form of battlefield munition. The Giant Raver and his few remaining ur-viles would find themselves surrounded by tanks, and while ur-vile vitriol can eat through flesh, I bet they never thought to test it against explosive reactive armour.
As an afterthought, I can't help thinking that a team of Delta operators might have made a good go at the quest for the Staff of Law.
Hey maybe I'm just fantasising now.
The Grey Slayer
Exactly right. Foul had a hand in choosing him believing he would fail, as he couldn't find the cusp of extremity and self-control that Covenant had. Sadly for Foul (and i'm truncating an argument here, as not to bore you allBTW, what’s with the general assumption that Troy failed? Wasn’t Fleshharrower’s army destroyed entirely? Didn’t Troy successfully draw it away from the Center Plains before they and Revelstone could be attacked? It’s hard to say that any other strategy could have produced a better outcome. He lost one Lord (Verement) and maybe half his outnumbered forces, but accomplished the total destruction of a much larger army without giving it any chance to lay waste to the populated parts of The Land.
), Troy dealt a massive blow to Foul by being even more extreme than anyone could have foresaw. Instead of giving-in to despair completely and becoming lunatic, he was transformed by his self-sacrifice into a massive boon to the land.Although his obduracy as a character makes him hard to like, I think of Troy as a damaged hero.
(Been a long, long time since I last posted. Hi to you all ^_^ )