AAARRRGGGHHH!!!!

[burgs]

I am so incredibly frustrated with people saying/writing that Donaldson has spent the last several books writing in the first person, and that doing so has damaged his writing. That simply is not TRUE!!!

He wrote one - ONE - mystery novel in first person since finishing up his fantasy and science fiction work. The other three were published in 1980, 1984, and 1990. That's a long time ago, guys.

Writing ONE book in first person in recent years does NOT ruin you as a writer.

A review on Amazon actually listed this as a reason the books aren't any good - and Amazon made the inane decision to make that review a Spotlight Review. I am absolutely baffled. Literally. Beyond metaphor (as trite as that may be).

Opinions are one thing. If people don't feel that he's the same writer he was 20 years ago, that's fine - just get your facts straight. Unfortunately, people are going to read that review, because it's listed first, and be misinformed.

Also - writing from various points of views strengthens a writer. It doesn't weaken them. Ask any published author of merit, and they'll tell you that.

[drew]

I'm with you. I don't know what in the hell people were expecting with this book...and I wish I knew what people didn't get out of it.
I've stated elsewere that the only other time I read a book and thought, "Wow, I didn't know they made books this good!" was when I read Lord Fouls Bane the first time.

[dlbpharmd]

I saw something about that on here the other day - someone was complaining about Runes being in first person.

[Furls Fire]

umm..who ever said that needs to take English 101 over again.

Runes and all the Chrons are written in third person narrative with a POV character. Mostly Covenant, but in Runes, it's Linden Avery. Donaldson also shifts the POV character from time to time in the Chrons, most notably in The One Tree, where the story is mostly told from Linden's POV.

Gilden Fire was basically taken out of the Illearth War because it was told from Korik's POV, which Lester Del Rey thought conflicted with the Land "reality" or "non-reality" in this case.

First person is told completely with an "I" POV, in which the author places himself as a character and becomes the narrator himself.

Soooooooo...go back to school who ever said Runes was in first person.

[burgs]

The other complaint in this particular review was that the Land was no longer a character. There's a reason for that - Kevin's Dirt. How can the Land be a character when nobody can feel it? At the times when they could feel the Land, it became a character again.

And as to Donaldson not being the writer he was, he did say something like "wow, i'm not that good of a writer anymore", but then realized that he's a different writer today, that he's more concerned with his characters and why they do the things they do. That is certainly evident throughout The Gap series.

[duchess of malfi]

A couple of other complaints I would like to discuss:



Mithil Stonedown still exists
In our world, there are human settlements that have been in one spot for thousands of years. Athens is an example of this. The original city was on top of that huge hill, which was easily defensible. The Acropolis is still up there now. There is usually a good reason for an old city or town being where it is. Mithil Stonedown has a couple -- proximity to water (except in the Sunbane years, of course), and more importantly, those easily defensible caves. They preserved the lives of the villagers during Lord Foul's winter, and preserved the livestock during the Sunbane period. Why would people leave such a good settlement spot?


Stonedowners still exist
Yes, they still exist as a race. These people live at the far end of the populated are of the Land, and have always been somewhat isolated. The isolation would have been increased during the period when the Clave governed the Land, and travel was not something usually done (strangers were used for their blood)...and now again, under the Masters travel is not allowed.
What's more important is the huge changes in the culture that have taken place. These people are racially Stonedowners, but culturally they had completely changed between the Fist and Second Chrons. And from the bit we have seen, the culture has once again had a massive change under the Masters...

Ramen and Haruchai still hold old grudges and that's not realistic
Ummm...watch the news, take note of the situation in the Middle East.

[burgs]

I agree wholeheartedly. There are plenty of isolated cultures that have been around for eons, although I'm hard pressed to name one off the top of my head. I'm just remembering History class in college from 75 years ago.

I think that the main problem with all of this is that SRD couldn't get past his stubbornness at wanting to be recognized for something other than Covenant. If he had started working on Covenant after he was finished with The Gap series (instead he published a mystery novel five years after Gap), Runes would have been a number one bestseller, just like all of the books in the 2nd Chrons. As a writer myself, I completely understand his frustration for not being appreciated, but let's be honest - he's stubborn and implacable. It's a shame that it bothered him so much that his other work wasn't being appreciated, but not everything someone writes is going to be everyone's cup of tea.

The Gap series, for example, was a radical departure for his fan base. Many people read both Fantasy and SF, but most have preferences. So he lost some fans simply by writing SF. He also lost some fans because the Gap series was so incredibly intense. I swear, the constant rape that was occurring - whether literal or figurative - gave me fits, and there were times I had to set whichever book I was reading aside because the intensity of the emotions were devastating and harsh. This isn't to take away from the inventiveness of the Gap series - it was brilliant. It was just very hard to read. At times I felt like I would have been better served to run a razor across my wrist.

I love SRDs work, and what he has to say about numerous topics that are brought up in the GI, but if his career is in decline, it's really his own fault. It needn't be.

[Thaale]

I agree with many of your comments, although not with your and the duchess’s points regarding Athens et al. Damascus might be a better example. It has been continuously inhabited for 5,000+ years, but the Damascus of today is of course not recognizably the Damascus of 5,000 years ago (ditto for Athens).

Where are the technological developments? Where are the introductions from outside cultures? In The One Tree we saw a variety of cultures and languages in Bhrathrair harbor. None of these people ever makes it to The Land? Nobody on that Earth ever discovers, say, steam power?

I do think you hit the nail on the head regarding SRD and his stubbornness and his not wanting to be locked into being “the leper guy” while still in his 30s. Understandable in a way, but just as I feel retroactive impatience with Arthur Conan Doyle for wanting to fool around with spiritualism and not get locked into writing only about Sherlock Holmes, I feel impatience with SRD for ranging too far afield from fantasy.

And his lack of preparation did not help him in the mystery and hard sf fields. I read a lot of both as well as fantasy, and SRD’s unfamiliarity with each genre is glaring. As I posted elsewhere, he really should have prepared himself better prior to writing a 1990s space opera. Somewhere on this site linked to some statement of SRD’s that most of his reading is of the classic variety. While I fully respect that in a reader, as a writer you cannot prepare yourself for writing a 1995 space opera by reading Jules Verne, A Merritt, and Doc Smith. And that’s what the Gap series felt like; 1920’s-style sf whisked forward in time with a nanotech gloss applied. You cannot be successful or respected in hard sf these days without getting the science right and without being much more specific than SRD was prepared to be.

I have never re-read the Gap series, precisely because of the intensity of the repeated rapes, and because I have little use for Angus being redeemed. Covenant’s one mad act was one thing (and he thought he was imagining everything). There is no excusing Angus, IMO. Also, the triangle that so fascinated SRD (rescuer-hero-victim) struck me as going a step too far in his morally relativistic worldview.

[CovenantJr]

Where are the technological developments? Where are the introductions from outside cultures? In The One Tree we saw a variety of cultures and languages in Bhrathrair harbor. None of these people ever makes it to The Land? Nobody on that Earth ever discovers, say, steam power?

As has been pointed out elsewhere in this forum, the Land is not our world. We had steam, they had Earthpower. Why seek to discover something as vulgar and inefficient as steam power when you have Earthpower? And the Land has suffered a series of enormous setbacks in cultural progress: the Desecration, the Sunbane, Kevin's Dirt/caesures... It simply can't be compared to the development of the real world.

[I'm Murrin]

Although supposedly the combination of both Kevin's Dirt and the ignorance about Earthpower should have left them similar to early cultures on Earth - but perhaps the Haruchai would have prevented such innovations and change.

[Thaale]

True, CovenantJr, magic could – and would – affect the pace the pace of science. Maybe it would accelerate it, BTW.

But in my post I spoke of the whole Earth. I can see woodhelvenin never changing if they were left alone – but why would they be? The bhrathrair and other cultures don’t seem to actively use Earthpower or Lore – do Giants? - so you would expect some of them to make progress elsewhere.

But even if they didn’t, what about the cultural influences I asked about? With many cultures whizzing about the globe (or plane?) why is The Land apparently left uncontaminated?

[drew]

With many cultures whizzing about the globe (or plane?) why is The Land apparently left uncontaminated?

Because it wouln't be the Land. Donaldson keeps telling people that this is the world that HE CREATED...Do you really think the story would be better with Brathairians floating around in steam ships???
One of my favorite things about TCOTC and the LAND, is that there is none of the normal fantasy elements...no Kings and Queens, no castles with flying buttresses, no Knights, no smithies, no inns and taverns. It's totally unique.
As I asked earlier...what did everyone expect? Covenant to show up. take back his ring, then ride his Rahnyin to mount thunder with an army of sandgorgans and Bloodguard to fight all the cavewights and Demondim?
Maybe there could have been a sea battle between the nicor and the merewives, with Brinn and cail as the respective generals. Or maybe he should have sent Linden right back home, and hooked back up with Lena--they're both dead afterall!--then at the end he could have smiled for Joan again...right before Lena stabbed her in the back with the Krill.


I don't mean to be rude to anyone who didn't like it. Everyone is certanly entitled to their own oppinoin. But it's a little judgemental to say the Donaldson is no good anymore, just because you don't like his new book.
I thought The Conquerer Worm sucked shit, but that didn't stop me from completing Daughter of Regals.

[Thaale]

Do you really think the story would be better with Brathairians floating around in steam ships???

Hardly better. I'd find it more beleiveable within the context of that world if we had an explanation as to why such didn't occur.

Well, there were one King and Queen...

[Lord Wombat]

Several things come to mind as I think about why the Land doesn't see technological progress:

1) Isolation--The Land is basically off the beaten path. If it is as far from other civilized areas as the Americas were from Eurasia and Africa, it's quite realistic for no one to have stumbled on it except for a group of very lost giants and another group guided by a vision. (Whereas, it's clear that post second trilogy, the Giants have come periodically, but the Haruchai basically keep them away from any significant contact with the locals). It's perfectly reasonable for no one else to find it.

Furthermore, the only civilization adjacent to the Land foreswears technology in favor of personal toughness (Haruchai).

2) Lore replaces Technology--We have no reason to believe that higher technology beyond a medieval level is possible. The Giants use their own forms of lore, not technology as we know it. Hile Troy made no apparent attempt to introduce gunpowder weapons, even though he would have to know their deadly potential. Earthpower doesn't work in the real world; we have no reason to presume advanced technology works at all in the Land.

Rather, all progress is in the form of developing and refining Lore. We see in Runes that the Ramen have learned how to use (I can't spell it right, the plant for healing horses) to treat humans also. In the past of the land, there were substantial advances in the use of Lore between Berek and Kevin's time.

And just look at how much was unlocked by the Loresraat between LFB and TIW. Of course, that was deciphering previously found lore, but...

We also know that post-Mhoram, the Lords further developed their lore, before the Sunbane made it all moot.

3) Disasters wreck advance.

Every so often, the Land basically loses EVERYTHING and has to start over from square one. Berek's homeland was destroyed. Kevin nuked the Land. The Sunbane destroyed the old lore. Once people adapted to the Sunbane, THAT went away.

Post-Sunbane, Sunder and Hollian basically utterly failed to make any sort of a framework out of which discovery of new Lore could emerge, so far as we can tell. There was no council of Lords, just the two of them, who then passed on the staff of Law to their idiot son Anele.

Nothing seems to have been done at all to build any sort of unity or cooperation or to push things for the encouragement of new Lore--hell, if nothing else, several wards of Kevin's lore were sitting around Revelstone, ready to be studied.

But, given the distrust of outsiders fostered by the Sunbane and the Claive, this is to be expected. Every community was on its own, and nothing happened to change those attitudes.

Then the Haruchai basically shut down all knowledge and advance.

[ur-bane]

Hardly better. I'd find it more beleiveable within the context of that world if we had an explanation as to why such didn't occur....

If SRD had given an explanation for every single detail, then what would we discuss at the Watch?

Does it really detract that much from the overall account?
This is a fantasy work. It is not a factual representation of actual events, which would be better understood with an anthropological adjunct.

Certainly it is a curiosity, but hardly a necessity.

[burgs]

I think Wombat's post summed it up quite nicely.

So, you see, SRD has given us the reasons. We simply have to find them. That's usually how he works.

[CovenantJr]

I agree - Wombat's post covered everything I was trying to say, but more eloquently and with extras

[PitchDude]

Drew, your Covenant/Lena scenario was hilarious! Not quite as funny as the 'Family Reunion' scenario in one of the other threads, but still pure genius!

Jim

[drew]

I could have gone with more...I was upset about all the nay-sayers.
Maybe Covenant and Mhoram could go get drunk on Earthblood, head over to brathair and get busy with some of the favored?

[burgs]

Speaking of Mhoram - did anyone ever wonder if he was gay? I mean, the guy never married, never evinced any interest in women (or men, for that matter).

I highly doubt that SRD had any intentions of making Mhoram a "gay-homosexual", to quote Eric Cartman from South Park, but it was a flashing thought that I had while rereading TPTP.

Now - no one better say anything about Mhoram's extreme courage, strength, and bravery as evidence to the contrary. Any right minded individual knows that not all homosexuals are effete.