Thomas' Crime

[lhaughlhann]

I have only just begun to read the Thomas Covenant Chronicles, so I have to restrict what I read on this forum incase I hit a spoiler patch and uh, well... spoil things!

BUT...

Spoiler

When Thomas rapes Lena. I was talking with Edge today and I said how unprepared for that I was. Edge says many people put the book down and don't pick it up again after that, I must admit I almost did. But there was something to the way SRD wrote it, that i got the drift Thomas wasn't the "man" doing the raping. Later on my idea is reaffirmed by Triock's attack on Thomas. In both instances, both men have a moment of confusion in their eyes, Thomas realises what had just happened when he sees the blood on Lena and vomits in the river, Triock has the same reaction when slicing Thomas' hand, a sudden falter but then he jumps back into action.

Are these events connected in some way, is there a hidden evil trying to corrupt, especially using events to its advantage? Destroy the oath of peace the people have taken? It is what has kept me reading, maybe it is just my human-ness that makes me want to believe Thomas is not so bad?

What do people think?

[danlo]

lhaughlhann, I know you're new here but you either have to put this in Chapter 6 & 7 of Lord Foul's Bane here or in the Thomas Covenant Discussion forum. (If you do not wish to include this in the Dissection I can move it to the TC forum)


I just moved this here: And hold on (I know what y'all are thinking) WARNING this has always been a heated debate at the Watch--please keep it civil and control yourselves or I will delete or lock without hestition. Thank you. Please do not spoil ahead for this brand new reader. Thanks again.

[Reynard Ashmelayn]

Not really...In both cases, I think it's a simple moment in which reason is lost to passion. It happens to all kinds of people. I know such things have happened to me (No details, because it's stuff I'm quite ashamed of and don't want to discuss in a crowd of strangers). One moment, I'm doing something totally insane, and the next moment I'm thinking, "What the kentucky fried (expletive of choice) am I doing?"

It's just an illustration of the frailty of human nature.

[UrLord]

Keep in mind that he honestly believes he's dreaming and simply doesn't believe that anything he does has any real consequences.

[Reynard Ashmelayn]

Maybe not any real consequences, but an immoral act is still immoral if it's only done in a dream. It's a sin of intent.

[Variol Farseer]

The real tragedy of that incident, to me, is that it was so thoroughly unnecessary. Lena was clearly gaga over this mysterious stranger who appeared to be Berek Halfhand reborn. Likely she would have given herself to him willingly if he had not ravished her by force. Covenant's whole history in the Land might have been very different (and much less destructive) if Lena had been his lover and not his victim. Or — let's be frank here — if he'd had the strength of character at that moment to keep his pants on and his hands to himself.

(As Vanessa said to Austin Powers when he discovered that she was actually a fembot: 'Next time, try foreplay!')

But a great deal of the subsequent story has to do with Covenant coming to terms with what he did to Lena, trying in various ways to make amends. Shame is a powerful factor in causing people to reform themselves, and I think lhaughlhann will be at least mollified to see the effort Covenant makes later on in the series.

[lhaughlhann]

Thank you for checking this out and posting your opinions, i don't usually get a chance to talk about a book i am currently reading, with so many people that have such an interest in the story. This site is great!

[theDespiser]

convenant thought the land was a dream

[ur-bane]

...But a great deal of the subsequent story has to do with Covenant coming to terms with what he did to Lena, trying in various ways to make amends. Shame is a powerful factor in causing people to reform themselves, and I think lhaughlhann will be at least mollified to see the effort Covenant makes later on in the series.

It affects the story in more ways than that. Due to our original poster not having read the entire 2 trilogies, I cannot elaborate here. The following spoiler should not be read by lhaughlhann:

Spoiler

Covenant's act greatly impacted Atiaran and Trell, and they both later became very involved in the events that transpired. Hile Troy would not have come to the Land as he did, Atiaran would originally have gladly traveled all the way to Revelstone (who knows what those consequences would have been). Trell would not have fallen into his Covenant-induced pain, and his acts would not have affected the story as they did, and much more would have changed
In essence, had Lena's rape not occurred, the entire trilogy would have been completely different.
And please do not take this the wrong way, but Lena's rape, while tragic, was.....necesssary......to convey they story as we know it. What else could have driven Atiaran and Trell to their ultimate acts of Despite?

[dlbpharmd]

I completely agree with ur-bane.

[Fist and Faith]

The fact that Covenant believed the Land was a dream - a belief that had not gelled at that point, and, imo, was never absolute with him - had nothing to do with the rape. He was not thinking, "Oh hell, it's only a dream. It doesn't matter what I do." The events and his actions were real to his psyche, or id, or whatever it should be called. Our non-thinking, emotion-driven, irrational selves. His conscious/rational mind was not present. If it had been, he wouldn't have done it. When it returned, he didn't think, "Whatever. It's only a dream." He knew he had committed a real rape, and became violently ill.

[Ur-lord Squallwolf]

Ur-lord is right in there. I agree also but I was thinking the same stuff as Ihaughlhann at the time i read the rape.

[Revenant]

I also don't think, as said above, that it's a "Whatever. It's only a dream" issue.

But I don't think either that TC's unbelief of what he was living isn't a reason.

For it's not merely that he thinks its a dream: he thinks this is some illusion his mind plays on him, giving him the pleasures his illness has denied him for so long, making him remember his long-lost sensations in his nerves, denying him the impotence to which he had to get used to for so long...
What his rational side was telling him was this was a great danger, an escapism he learned he could not afford, for which attrocious decay and death were the price to pay (remember the man in the sanitorium? "Better death than this!" )

So here's this beautifull young girl, all giggly and a 'groopie', telling him that no, this Land is real, all this is real and beautifull.

To which Covenant reacted: "Are you trying to drive me crazy?"

She's the one who had put the hurtloam on him, instigating the revival of his nerves.
She was an active part of this deadly illusion.

At that point, I think he wanted to confront his 'illusion', attack it, even defile it.
And I think it got out of hand, and he realised it later, too late.

And this reminds me that scene in TPTP, with Elena wielding the Staff, ready to choke Covenant, and him saying: "You don't even exist."
I think it's the real Elena inside, at that moment, that wanted to strike him...

Great tragedy.

[Fist and Faith]

And this reminds me that scene in TPTP, with Elena wielding the Staff, ready to choke Covenant, and him saying: "You don't even exist."
I think it's the real Elena inside, at that moment, that wanted to strike him...

Great tragedy.

I never thought of it that way! Yeah, the real Elena inside might have been REAL mad when he said that!

[lhaughlhann]

I am furiously trying to finish Lord Foul's Bane, so that i can read on. I am itching to read your spoiler ur-bane, but will not do so till i have at least finished the Illearth War. Thomas' character intrigues me.

[ur-bane]

I am furiously trying to finish Lord Foul's Bane, so that i can read on. I am itching to read your spoiler ur-bane, but will not do so till i have at least finished the Illearth War. Thomas' character intrigues me.

Actually, what I said also pertains to TPTP (book 3 of the 1st Chronicles).
So you might want to wait until after you have read that book as well.

I would tell you to read the spoiler now, but I'm not really sure how big (or small) a spoiler it would be for you.

[lhaughlhann]

I think i'll wait. At this rate without anything too disasterous happening, i'll be done with the first Chronicles in about two weeks.

[Thomas Covenant]

Well, you see,--err-- the thing about that is...

DON'T TOUCH ME!

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

Well, L, either way you look at the issue, you're rewarded.

If you believe that its a horrid act,

Spoiler

he's punished, and punished, and punished and punished to the point that you can't imagine a prison sentance would be more painful. Sorry if that's a spoiler...

either way, I agree, the rape of Lena is possibly the most pivotal act of the first chronicles.

[hamako]

I hated the whole scene and found it very difficult to comprehend, dream or not. TO do that and to a kid as well....

But it is pivotal to the whole story and isn't forgotten. You'll know having read more of LFB how it plays on his mind.

It's an event that makes TC's character all the more intriguing though, that he has the capacity to do something so catastrophic to something he believes is unreal - see any parallels?