Some Observations (and Predictions)...

[ScrapOSamadhi]

First off, Donladson is my favorite author, his were the first books I read after The Lord of The Rings. I have read the series about 7 times over the past 24 years.

Lots of theories are floating around, a lot sound like "wouldn't it be neat if", or "I'd like to see that.". I've been trying to read between the lines here and there to make some more modest observations.

First off, something small. When Stave was put through the Ritual by the Humbled and the Voice of the Masters did anyone notice how the Voice struck him at the end? "Like the Humbled, he struck only once. Unlike them, however, he used just the palm of his hand. And his blow seemed easy and fluid, hardly more than a light thrust. Yet Stave burst backward as though he had been kicked by a Ranyhyn." This struck me (pun intended) as VERY similar to how a Raver's blows have supernatural explosive impact. Consider Marid striking Covenant in The Wounded Land "The unnatural power of the blow catapulted Covenant backward." We know turiya Raver is busy keeping Joan insane and causing Caesures. Maybe moksha is busy with Roger Covenant. Samadhi was rent by Nom and shreds of his being consumed (all of them?). It is possible the Voice has a Raver (like Gibbon was in the second chronicles) controlling or influencing him.

The other possibility is there is a Croyel hanging around. Mahdoubt seems to wrap herself in a cloak of shadows. It seems those who are under the influence of them tend to be more interested in controlling others (becoming Masters), such as The Kemper, and the Arghule in the second chronicles.

Given Anele mentioned Croyel in some of his rantings, they are involved somehow. Either with the Skurj or the Mahdoubt is my guess.

It was indicated by Anele that Kastenessen freed himself, and that it was not Esmer who freed him.

I believe the suggestion that Linden bringing the Staff of Law forward (and depriving the land of it for centuries) led to Kevin's Dirt. Aparently it took a while to develop though. If the time between the second and third chronicles is 3600 years or so, and the staff went missing in the first few of hundred years, it took 2400 years for it to happen. Anele indicated kevin's dirt originate (25 or 50 score years ago) 500-1000. Linden did surmise "Violations of Law like Kevin's Dirt and caesures could not have flourished in the presence of the Staff."

It was stated in Lord Foul's Bane that Berek knew of White Gold and all their tales and lore of it came down from him.

I could see Stave becoming the Guardian of the One Tree as has been suggested.

Now for the big one, where is the Creator? He was conspicuously absent from the beginning of the book. Here is a wild theory. What if he (or part of him) is in Jerimmiah? It was stated he couldn't reach his hand through to touch the earth or he'd break the Arch, or couldn't use a knowing tool, but if he hid out in someone who was being summoned BY his enemy to be their tool? He isn't trying to DO anything, just laying in wait in case the Despiser comes close to winning. It may also explain Jerimmiah's model of the land, AND why his model over his bed is probably a model of the Arch of Time (hint hint) as the creator DID build the arch in the first place. Jerimmiah only built this one at night, probably while he was asleep.

An interesting note is Linden was able to give Jerimmiah BACK the two digits on his hand, the opposite ones to those chopped off on Berek and amputated on Covenant.

I am sure Coventant will be back, in the flesh somehow (maybe the figure coming is him, or a decoy). I doubt the Krill will play a large part as another speculated. It was all but destroyed sundering the Law of Life. In the past... perhaps, but it seems the power ante has been upped considerably in these chronicles and it is now second or third tier in relative strength.

I can't wait for the rest.

[burgs]

First off, something small. When Stave was put through the Ritual by the Humbled and the Voice of the Masters did anyone notice how the Voice struck him at the end? "Like the Humbled, he struck only once. Unlike them, however, he used just the palm of his hand. And his blow seemed easy and fluid, hardly more than a light thrust. Yet Stave burst backward as though he had been kicked by a Ranyhyn." This struck me (pun intended) as VERY similar to how a Raver's blows have supernatural explosive impact. Consider Marid striking Covenant in The Wounded Land "The unnatural power of the blow catapulted Covenant backward."

I'm not sure there is a Raver in Revelstone. Instinctually, I feel there is merely an error; an error committed on the part of the Haruchai, who while being the embodiment of physical perfection have made some ridiculous decisions in the past.

Now for the big one, where is the Creator? He was conspicuously absent from the beginning of the book. Here is a wild theory. What if he (or part of him) is in Jerimmiah? It was stated he couldn't reach his hand through to touch the earth or he'd break the Arch, or couldn't use a knowing tool, but if he hid out in someone who was being summoned BY his enemy to be their tool? He isn't trying to DO anything, just laying in wait in case the Despiser comes close to winning. It may also explain Jerimmiah's model of the land, AND why his model over his bed is probably a model of the Arch of Time (hint hint) as the creator DID build the arch in the first place. Jerimmiah only built this one at night, probably while he was asleep.

This is the belief that I'm going with. My question is: why is the Creator stuck in Jeremiah's body? What purpose does that serve? The answer seems to be that it might have something to do with his inability to directly touch his creation, and he is doing so now through Jeremiah. This theory, though, is fraught with problems.

I can't wait for the rest.

Ditto!

[JD]

The chances of a Raver possesing a Haruchai is slim, the last time it took the Illearth Stone to control the Bloodguard. Plus Linden would have been able to detect the presence of a Raver after she obtained the Staff of Law. Plus the Haruchai themselves still had their Earth-sense and would have been able to stop that.

As far as the impact of the Voice's blow is concerned, I think it was something of a natural skill that a mature older battle wise Haruchai would have in his arsenal. Bruce Lee was credited with a one inch punch that litterly would knock trained martial artist on their butts. I've seen it myself on video where he was doing a demonstration at a martial arts tournament.

[saera]

Considering Linden's experience with Ravers I doubt she would miss one if it were right in front of her, and the Voice was, like, all the time. I'll go with JD's thoughts on that one.

Now for the big one, where is the Creator? He was conspicuously absent from the beginning of the book. Here is a wild theory. What if he (or part of him) is in Jerimmiah? It was stated he couldn't reach his hand through to touch the earth or he'd break the Arch, or couldn't use a knowing tool, but if he hid out in someone who was being summoned BY his enemy to be their tool? He isn't trying to DO anything, just laying in wait in case the Despiser comes close to winning. It may also explain Jerimmiah's model of the land, AND why his model over his bed is probably a model of the Arch of Time (hint hint) as the creator DID build the arch in the first place. Jerimmiah only built this one at night, probably while he was asleep.

That feels like too much like Dogma. (Remember, God was captured in that old man's body in the hospital who was near death so God couldn't get out and everything) I doubt he's in Jeremiah, but yes, he is absent. Rather, I think he is deliberately absent, staying away for some sort of purpose we have yet to discover.

[Damelon]

First off, something small. When Stave was put through the Ritual by the Humbled and the Voice of the Masters did anyone notice how the Voice struck him at the end? "Like the Humbled, he struck only once. Unlike them, however, he used just the palm of his hand. And his blow seemed easy and fluid, hardly more than a light thrust. Yet Stave burst backward as though he had been kicked by a Ranyhyn." This struck me (pun intended) as VERY similar to how a Raver's blows have supernatural explosive impact. Consider Marid striking Covenant in The Wounded Land "The unnatural power of the blow catapulted Covenant backward." We know turiya Raver is busy keeping Joan insane and causing Caesures. Maybe moksha is busy with Roger Covenant. Samadhi was rent by Nom and shreds of his being consumed (all of them?). It is possible the Voice has a Raver (like Gibbon was in the second chronicles) controlling or influencing him.

I doubt the Ravers have anything to do with the actions of the Masters. I think it was Dead Elena in TPTP that said that Haruchai and Giants are to powerful to be mastered but too weak to be masters.

The other possibility is there is a Croyel hanging around. Mahdoubt seems to wrap herself in a cloak of shadows. It seems those who are under the influence of them tend to be more interested in controlling others (becoming Masters), such as The Kemper, and the Arghule in the second chronicles.

My guess is that Linden would have spotted the influence of a croyel after she restored herself with the Staff in Revelstone. My own thought about the Mahdoubt is that she's benign, but how she came to be hasn't been explained yet.

BTW, welcome to the Watch!

[native]

My own thought about the Mahdoubt is that she's benign, but how she came to be hasn't been explained yet.

I think so too. IIRC Donaldson has said she is what she appears to be - a sly tribute to the Shadout Mapes from Dune.

[ScrapOSamadhi]

It is good to have some people to talk to who actually understand Donaldon's universe.

I agree that Linden or the Masters should be able to see a Raver and that it is unlikely the Voice is one. My comment about the blow was just due to its similarity (I don't think Donaldson would pull a Gibbon on us twice).

One other thought occured to me that the Raver Nom assaulted was rent (not slain). The Mahdoubt's cloak being oddly stitched together from a bunch of pieces made me think of that. I know this is all very hand wavey.

I hadn't considered the Mahdoubt to be an Elohim as some others have suggested. It could fit, as the Elohim could hide from Linden and the Haurchai but it doesn't quite seem their style.

[Aleksandr]

I doubt he's [the Creator] in Jeremiah, but yes, he is absent. Rather, I think he is deliberately absent, staying away for some sort of purpose we have yet to discover.

Its' possible that the Creator interracted with Jeremiah in some fashion in the real world, and we'll hear about it later. The kid seems to be reactive now in the Land. Maybe he'll have a story to tell about an old guy in an ochre robe?

[burgs]

I said this in another string, but I'll mention it here. It's possible that because caesures are rents in the fabric of time, that the Creator can touch the Land now.

[Baradakas]

The Voice's supernatural attack is a common theme in Eastern Asian mythology (i.e. a master of his art so powerful that his touch alone can be deadly), the trickle-down can be seen in every manga and anime out there. (DBZ is my personal favorite)

Donaldson's love of martial arts is well known. It's probabaly no more than an expression of the Voice's mastery.

IMO.


-B

[Fist and Faith]

SoS, first off, congrats on coming up with one of the best usernames here!!!!!!

Second, I like your Creator/Jeremiah idea. Hadn't considered it at all. Makes sense that there's a good reason nobody was told to Be true before going to the Land.

[mickwalker]

SoS, first off, congrats on coming up with one of the best usernames here!!!!!!

Second, I like your Creator/Jeremiah idea. Hadn't considered it at all. Makes sense that there's a good reason nobody was told to Be true before going to the Land.

The voice's blow is symbolic, he breaks staves mental conection to his people, this hurts him much more than any physical blow, he does not say stave is wrong only that he is presuming to make his own thoughts vocal, the real power of the masters is that they work in concert wiyh each other. untill they have collectivly decided their responce to linden and the staff Brand can have no further insights into the racial mind they may decide to work against him

[highlander]

I am new to these discussions. Somewhere on these lists I saw a discussion of anagrams. Has there been any discussion of Anele's name? It is the verb for the administering of the Catholic sacrament of "extreme unction" (blessing for the gravely ill) which I believe has evolved into the anointing of the sick. Also, in what may be stating the obvious, it is "Elena" spelled backwards -- which puts Anele's comment that he was "born again" in a more intriguing context and makes it too coincidental that he lost the Staff of Law. My apologies if there's already a whole series of posts on these points.

[tallan]

Also, in what may be stating the obvious, it is "Elena" spelled backwards -- which puts Anele's comment that he was "born again" in a more intriguing context and makes it too coincidental that he lost the Staff of Law.

SRD has stated that there's no hidden meaning to Anele's name. The fact that Anele is Elena spelled backwards was simply a coincidence.
*blinks* To me; that's hard to believe, but if the Man Himself has said it... *shrugs*

[I'm Murrin]

Apparently he didn't even realise Anele was Elena backwards until someone pointed it out to him.

[highlander]

Thanks, that's interesting. I can't help wonder if he made those comments with a Cheshire grin. An author who so appropriately names his main character "Thomas Covenant" can't possibly have missed either the Elena connection or the sacramental implications of the name Anele. Were SRD's comments on these points made during book tours or is there some other source for them?

[Edge]

It was in an answer to a question specically about that, in the Gradual Interview.

[Plissken]

I think that I already said this, but I think that the name Anele reflects his dual natures. "Anneal" in the sense of forging.