Lets talk about Faith

Post by **Worm of Despite** » Tue May 13, 2003 5:26 pm

*Is becoming more cynical by the second* Boy, you people and your faith . . . Heck--as long as there are politicians, and wars, and oil-mongers, and religious hypocrisy, and the rat race, and the selfish work-force, and the "money uber alles" attitude that is undeniably prevalent, I will be a BIT cynical. I can't ignore the flaws, folks! "Scatch the surface of a cynic, and you'll find a disappointed idealist." George Carlin said that! I'm going to lay down one of his quotes when I get home, so folks can understand my feelings . . . .

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Wed May 14, 2003 2:28 am

The hypocrisy of some believers of any religion, even if it was ALL believers of the religion, does not invalidate the religion. It's not a reason to assume the religion is not true. There may be reasons to doubt the religion, and there may not be any reasons to believe it, but the behavior of those who claim to be its followers has nothing to do with it. Most people are the way they are, and will not change because of other things they believe. In fact, they often come up with interesting interpretations of their religion's sacred texts in order to validate their behavior. But that's the fault of human nature, not the religion.

Post by **Worm of Despite** » Wed May 14, 2003 9:20 pm

I don't think religion is wrong because there's some hypocrisy about that--I never said that, but I'm just saying--nothing's perfect, not even the Church. Folks seem to think I'm one-sided on an argument, but I'm not! I think religion is good AND bad. I've said time and again, humanity's everything--religion isn't excluded from that equation, methinks. I'm positive about everything, but also negative about everything--because everything seemingly has a dark side, way I see it. Ying yang! Aren't all human beings like that, or am I alone on this? You all just shining optimists! I need me a fellow pessimist out here, darn it. Maybe if she looks good, she'll make a nice Foul-wife.

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Thu May 15, 2003 3:47 am

LF, you'll have to excuse my having jumped to the wrong conclusion, but neither of your previous posts in this thread so much as suggested that there's even a hint of goodness about faith or religion.

As far as being a "shining optimist"... Fair enough. I usually present only the good. So we're even!

Fact is, I'm extremely pessimistic about humanity. I'm not sure if there is more bad being done than good, but the bad is faster and stronger. Stronger in the sense that something like September 11th caused much death, pain, and horror; and lead to further acts of death, pain, and horror. The good can have huge effects also, but it takes more time and effort to spread the message. Plus, the good is often perverted, as Christianity was perverted so many times. (The Crusades, for example. The pope absolving the sins of criminals if they'd kill the heathens.)

With all that, I'm not nearly confident that we'll survive much longer. It gets easier and easier to kill more and more people, and too many people are looking to do just that.

But how will anger and looking for the bad help our situation? Anything that looks like optimism on my part is my way of fighting back. I'm thinking that the only thing that can possibly save us is understanding why others are different, and accepting the differences. So that's what I'll keep preaching!:) And, after all, it's not like I'm making anything up. I'm just drawing attention to what I consider good beliefs and good reasons for it. If I do it enough, maybe those who can currently see only the bad will start to notice the good.

(And good luck finding Mrs. Foul. I hope she doesn't have that really bad hair that Mrs. Frankenstein had!)

Post by **Ryzel** » Thu May 15, 2003 8:32 am

The universe itself is an aberration in the greater cosmos, a brief wave of existence in a great ocean of unbeing. Everything falls apart, slowly from within, instantly from without. The laws of the universe exist only here. Greater always becomes lesser, much becomes less, energy flows outward, matter disintegrates. The laws fall apart and everything fails in the end, including the universe itself.

Post by **danlo** » Thu May 15, 2003 2:00 pm

There is a very cool (obscure) little sci-fi, that I think was published in the 70s, called What Entrophy Means to Me. So obscure that an extensive Google search did not reveal it or it's author. Anyway Ryzel, even tho u prob never meant 2 do it, ur post sounds like direct quotes from that book. If any1 is lucky enuf 2 find this tiny, but sometimes very weird, gem of a book--it does and amazing job of xpanding that vein of this arguement...sometimes quite pessimistic...but still a fascinating read...

Post by **Ryzel** » Thu May 15, 2003 2:29 pm

Never heard of the book. Will check it out.

Post by **Ryzel** » Thu May 15, 2003 2:32 pm

Now I do not know why you did not turn up anything on google but altavista gave me:

www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/07592 ... 39-1399842

Post by **danlo** » Thu May 15, 2003 2:39 pm

George Alec Effinger-right, quite cool Ryzel! Every1 should read this book @least once in their lifetime--thanks!

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Fri May 16, 2003 2:41 am

Ryzel wrote:The universe itself is an aberration in the greater cosmos, a brief wave of existence in a great ocean of unbeing. Everything falls apart, slowly from within, instantly from without. The laws of the universe exist only here. Greater always becomes lesser, much becomes less, energy flows outward, matter disintegrates. The laws fall apart and everything fails in the end, including the universe itself.

Yup. And then it starts all over again.

Post by **pitchwife** » Fri May 16, 2003 4:03 am

I was reading "The Broken God" by David Zindell the other day, and there is a discussion about beliefs and worldviews which I thought was kind of relevant to this thread. Anyway, I really liked it, so here are some excerpts:

"Our system is not a simple system like other systems; it is a meta-system designed to free us from all systems. While we cannot hope to rid ourselves of all beliefs and worldviews, we can free ourselves from bondage to any particular belief or world view." ...

This art - it is sometimes called plexity- aims at moving the student through the four stages of liberation. In the first stage, that of the simplex, one is caught within the bounds of a single worldview. This is the reality of a child or an Alaloi hunter, who may not even be aware that other ways of perceiving reality exist. ... Out of chioce - or cowardice - most people never break out of this simple stage of viewing the world as through a single lens, and this is their damnation. ...

To be complex is to hold at least two different realities, perhaps at two different times of one's life. The complex woman or man will cast away beliefs like old cloths, as they become worn or inappropriate. Using the Fravashi techniques, it is possible to progress from one belief system to another, ever growing, ever more flexible, bursting free from one worldview into another as a snake sheds an old skin. ...

The third stage of plexure is the multiplex. ... multiplexity is the holding of more than one reality at the same time. These realities may be different - or even contradictory - as the old science and the magical thinking of a child. "Truth is multiple," as the Old Fathers say. One can never become multiplex if afraid of paradox or enslaved by the god of consistency. ... The mastery of multiplexity makes it possible to see the world in many dimensions; ... The multiplex man (or alien) will see all truths as interlocking parts of a greater truth.

The Fravashi teach that once in every cycle of time, one is born who will evolve from multiplexity to the omniplex, which is the fourth and final stage of liberation. This completely free individual is the asarya. Only the asarya may hold all possible realities at once. ...

This idea is the pinnacle of all Fravashi thought and wisdom, and it was this very teaching that Danlo disputed above all others. ... The entire logic of the Fravashi system pointed toward liberation from belief systems and beliefs - why not strive to believe nothing at all? Why no behold reality with faultless eyes, as free from worldviews as a newborn child?Wasn't this awakening into innocence the true virtue of an asarya?

"Oh, oh," Old Father said to him, "but everyone must believe something. Even if one must invent one's own beliefs."

Post by **danlo** » Fri May 16, 2003 4:59 am

I, 4 1 would agree...

we have the opportunity 2 reinvent the universe everyday...

Post by **Skyweir** » Fri May 16, 2003 6:31 pm

yeah I agree with Foul .. I dont believe there is anything that is perfect ..

and i guess thats why its called faith .. if it were a perfect state .. it might be called knowledge!

knowing something to be .. as opposed to having faith that something is ..

People arent perfect .. churches run by people aren't perfect .. or even if there run by the gods .. they still aint perfect .. cos they depend on people to run them .. so NOT PERFECT ..

even gods themselves may not be perfect .. you'd hope their a hell of a lot closer to the ideal than we mere mortals are .. but what at the end of the day is 'perfect' anyway? like what is perfection?

perfection? its not an endgame .. its a process surely .. *shrugs*

Post by **Ryzel** » Fri May 16, 2003 9:53 pm

Fist and Faith wrote:Yup. And then it starts all over again.

Optimist

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Fri May 16, 2003 11:31 pm

Ryzel wrote:
Fist and Faith wrote:Yup. And then it starts all over again.
Optimist

Just doing the yin/yang thing. Everything IN the universe is part of one or more cycles, so maybe the universe itself cycles too. I wouldn't say it's something I have faith in. If true, it won't happen in my lifetime, so I don't much concern myself with it. But it's an interesting thought.

Sort of a tangent. Here's something Black Elk said:

Everything the Power of the World does is done in a circle. The sky is round and I have heard that the earth is round like a ball and so are all the stars. The wind, in its greatest power, whirls. Birds make their nests in circles, for theirs is the same religion as ours. The sun comes forth and goes down again in a circle. The moon does the same and both are round. Even the seasons form a great circle in their changing and always coming back again to where they were. The life of a man is a circle from childhood to childhood. And so it is in everything where power moves.

Post by **Worm of Despite** » Fri May 16, 2003 11:39 pm

Fist and Faith wrote:LF, you'll have to excuse my having jumped to the wrong conclusion, but neither of your previous posts in this thread so much as suggested that there's even a hint of goodness about faith or religion.

For me, there's nothing good in faith or religion--in my universe. I don't get jack squat out of it--period.

So, to answer you:

What I do believe--and which I admittedly never pointed out--was that it does well for others.

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Sat May 17, 2003 3:00 am

Yup, I gotcha. Like I said, my posts were just as one-sided, trying to look only at the good/admirable, aspects of faith in others.

Post by **Ryzel** » Sat May 17, 2003 6:34 am

I do not think I buy that cycle idea. Everything is NOT part of a cycle, but a cycle or a circular feedback system might be more stable and durable than others and therefore we tend to see a lot more of them. It is all a matter of trapping and conserving energy that would otherwise be lost. But if the universe was built on the principle of conserving energy we should be capable of building a perpetual motion machine, shouldn't we, because it would be natural that it should work. But it does not.

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Sun May 18, 2003 4:04 am

I'm not sure what you mean. The amount of matter/energy (two forms of the same thing) in the universe never changes. It just changes form, back and forth. It may seem to be lost, if you're only looking at some specific system, but it still exists somewhere, in one form or another. What do you have in mind that you do not think is a part of any cycle?

Post by **Ryzel** » Sun May 18, 2003 8:51 am

There is no conclusive evidence that the universe itself is part of a cycle. I.e. the current knowledge seems to favor that the universe will just keep expanding for ever. This is not IMO a cyclical thing.

Anyway, any earthly cycles are all powered by the sun. This means that not everything is recycled, only some parts. This makes sense, for instance where some things are much more scarce than others. (Sunlight is cheap and plentiful energy.) But this means that any natural cycle needs to be powered by something, and this power if nothing else is not moving cyclically but is expended, transmuted, changed by driving the cycle of other things.

Based on this I feel that it is wrong to say that everything is cyclical, because there are several (important) things that are not.

And while I know of situations where matter turns into energy, can you come up with an example of energy would transmute to matter?

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

Lets talk about Faith

David Zindell about belief