The Mahdoubt

[finn]

Interesting reading in this thread about an interesting character, she is far more of an enigma than many other questions raised in the first book of C3.

I personally did not read anything into the child/tantrum analogy with respect to her face, I think it was just figurative.Nor do I necessarily believe SRDs explanation that she's "just a Housekeeper"; it would be crazy to give away too much in an interview. However the robe does seem significant and I like the suggestion about the patchwork nature of the building bricks of Jeremiah.

My overall 'feel' from the character had a haunting similarity to the feel from the Creator charater. Why?

The speech pattern at times was similar especially the reference to "trusting love" which whilst opposite to "there is love in the world" at Haven Farm, still created a link in my mind.

The familial, almost parental feel of the Mahdoubt and the Creator (in my mind) which seems to be echoed in the reaction of the charaters which interact. That's the feeling I got, can't completely explain it.

I was wondering about a composite character or a benign possession. Why are there a cadre of housekeepers at Revelstone, who are they and what is their motivation? The Mahdoubt suggests that there are others and that they are somehow bound to Revelstone or at least to its service.

When did they commence their service, I wondered what happened to the servants of the Clave, the good guys who served the Clave without knowing its true purpose. Could these be Melma's people paying for their mistake with an elaborate vow of service like the bloodguard or the Ramen?

Do they serve Revelstone or something else, ie, guardians of the re-discovered Law Wards or perhaps the Creator, who might be able to communicate through them. The Arch of Time allows Lord Foul to communicate with the 'real world' and interact with the religeous nutters who put their hands in the fire, Joan and maybe Roger: why not the other way. Burg66 suggested a "fabric" of time, I like this as a concept, flexible, maybe porous?

Just some thoughts.

[oscartheduck]

Maybe they serve whomever the people who took over from the Clave are. A non-earthpower reliant set of Lords.

[burgs]

This is, to me, the most complex and intriguing thread on the Watch. There are so many possibilities, and just when I thought I had my mind around most of them, a new one gets interjected. I have repeatedly brought up the suru-pa-maerl, but I don't think (and if I'm wrong here, I feel sorry for my brain) that I made the connection to Jeremiah being the mad child throwing a tantrum. But that makes perfect sense.

Joan created the Falls - why can't Jeremiah have created the Mahdoubt?

One note. I just returned from a Carribbean cruise, and spent quite a bit of time looking over the boat into the deep blue of the water, and every time I did the Mahdoubt was there.

Now, how does Shadout Mapes fit into our theories? I need to look at Dune again. It's been, um, twenty years?

[Aleksandr]

Joan created the Falls - why can't Jeremiah have created the Mahdoubt?

Did Jeremiah have access top Linden’s (TC’s) Ring? I donlt think he could have done anything in the Land without the Ring.

Now, how does Shadout Mapes fit into our theories?

She was a Freman spy sent to check out the Lady Jessica and Paul and learn whether they fit the Maud’dib prophecy. Later she was killed when the Atreides were overthrown on Dune. Does this been the Madoubt is spying for someone, or that she will be killed? We’ll have to wait and see where Donaldson goes with this most intriguing little mystery of a character.

[Jerico]

What if she is another Creator. At the end of TPTP when TC is talking with the Creator something is said by the Creator about the Creator of TC's world. SO that implies that there are diffrent Creators. Maybe she is one of his friends, or his sister or whatever?? Maybe she is the Creator of TC's world?

[burgs]

A spy is someone with "eyes". They look, see, and note. Interesting that the Mahdoubt's eyes (along with her cloak of course) are her most striking characteristic.

[wayfriend]

My current theory...she is actually some kind of incarnation or agent of the Creator!

Her patchwork dress = moments seemingly stitched together randomly into a whole

I get the impression that she is somehow a puzzle with some of the pieces missing.

Maybe she's a combination of Covenant and Bannor?

I think that these are all correct!!!

I've been away reading, so I'm coming into this late.

First, some tidbits:

1) SRD has described many characters' faces in many stories as looking like they sculpted or hewn of stone or clay. It's a frequent device he uses. I think we are misled here if we give this too much relevance.

2) I think that Esmer has convinced me that Kastennessen's wife would be too destructive and too spiteful, especially of men, to manifest as Mahdoubt.

3) SRD himself says "And yes, there is a memory of the Shadout Mapes in the Mahdoubt's name". See this interview.

Now, my theory: I believe that Mahdoubt is good ole' TC himself.

I think that the patchwork clothing brings to mind alloy too much to be discounted.

TC says "Find me". Maybe he is lost. I think he is hiding. I think he has become fragmented by the caesures, and the Mahdoubt is one aspect of him which is hiding from Foul. He's in the safest place he can think of, in Revelstone, with the Haruchai. And he cannot tell Linden where he overtly because he cannot affort to have Foul find him before he is made whole again. (Foul has gained control of the fragment that has his physical form. He's dead; Foul can compel this bit of him. This is why Linden must beware of TC - while at the same time she must find him.)

In Revelstone, he serves the Haruchai and the people of the Land. After all he has been through, I think he would find comfort in serving those who have served him. A kind of pennance that he would take comfort in.

I think that the Mahdoubt's use of third person to speak of herself reveals that she is not a whole person. She is just a fragment of one, wrapped in an image for disguise. A fragment of Covenant. She doesn't have an I component in her makeup.

Mahdoubt looks and sounds a lot like Doubting Thomas.

Linden instantly connects with the Mahdoubt. "She felt unexpectedly protective of the Mahdoubt. At the same time, she yearned to be protected by her." Sounds like her relationship with Tom.

Another fragment of TC is able to speak with Linden via Anele. He says "It fits" that she is here. Because she is a healer, and she is the only one who will be able to restore him, and restore the Law of Time, and the fragmentation of the Arch of Time, which are all the same thing.

Mahrtiir says "I seemed to see another in her place." Again, this points to a disguise.

All of the similarities to the creator could equally argue for similarities to Covenent, since in the author's mind, Covenant and the Creator are aspects of each other.

That sums up everything I have so far. Thoughts? Holes?

[burgs]

That's certainly an intriguing theory. My only problem with it is: why would TC be hiding from Foul? He has (at least as I see it) nothing to fear from someone he has bested twice - especially as he is now wild magic incarnate.

Otherwise, good musings.

[Thaale]

People have already said Vestabule, right? Or am I thinking of another thread?

Or maybe The Mahdoubt is a combination of Stephen King and SRD.

[wayfriend]

why would TC be hiding from Foul?

Well, my sketchy theory is that there are different aspects of TC around. One component is able to reach Linden in dreams. One aspect is able to posess Anele. One aspect is disguised as the Mahdoubt. One manifests his physical form. But none are entirely himself - or, rather, himself in his entirity. Foul has at least one of them, possibly two (those dreams don't seem too nice.)

Doesn't this explain why TC would yearn to be found on the one hand, and caution not to trust him on another hand, and then come riding up to Revelstone on another hand?

TC is hiding because being a fragmented dead guy has some drawbacks. If TC is not whole, perhaps he can be manipulated by Foul. He needs to stay free long enough to be restored by Linden. He cannot even tell Linden where to look for him, because Foul will catch on.

This is obviously a story about wholeness. At all different levels. Time is fractured and needs to be made whole. Linden's heart is empty and needs her son to be made whole. Esmer is torn by conflict and needs to be made whole. The skurj are free and threaten to render the Earth un-whole. Covenent and Foul need to be united and made whole.

So I think it fits with the theme that Covenent is divided in some way. And that when he unifies himself, the problem of Lord Foul the Despiser will finally be resolved.

[JD]

If the Mahdoubt is TC, how is it that he is seen riding with Jeremiah ahead of the Demondin? Can a person be in two places at one time? <aybe this is possible since TC is dead, but he came back thru a caesure as a live person? This mustery should be interesting to find out what or who the Mahdoubt really is.

[I'm Murrin]

JD, I'll assume you're not responding to Wayfriend's most recent post, since he explained it quite clearly.

Wayfriend: A good idea. Time is being fragmented, so the keystone of time, the crux - Covenant - has somehow been fragmented also.

This is obviously a story about wholeness. At all different levels. Time is fractured and needs to be made whole. Linden's heart is empty and needs her son to be made whole. Esmer is torn by conflict and needs to be made whole. The skurj are free and threaten to render the Earth un-whole. Covenent and Foul need to be united and made whole.

If your idea is correct, then it follows logically that in these Chronicles, Foul must be another part of TC himself; in fact, an entire fragment.

[JD]

Sorry about that, I started my post before Wayfriends was posted but did not finish it as I was called away. By the time I finished the post his was already in.

[I'm Murrin]

I'd guessed as much.

[burgs]

I agree with the thoughts on wholeness, but if TC has already acknowledged that he and Foul the same, what is there to hide from?

[Jerico]

Yes TC says that he and Foul are the same, but SRD has also said that TC has something yet to learn. Maybe TC is wrong about he and Foul being the same being.
TC isn't dead he's the protector of the Arch, or Avatar, he's like Hile Troy after he became the forestal. But he is not a part of the Arch. So I can't see him being fragmented by the Ceasures.

As far as TC being the Mahdoubt, and a bunch of broken parts?
First TC tells Linden to find the Staff, and to not worry about Jerimiah. Then he tells her "find me" but this is before she knows what the Ceasures are.
Then once she knows what they are and has decided to go back to retrieve the staff he tells her to be wary and remember he is dead. I think he means this in a specific 'time' sense. As in 'when you travel back in time don't trust me (then).

[wayfriend]

As in 'when you travel back in time don't trust me (then).

... except he knows that when she travels back in time she won't even see him. So that gets you the buzzer.

Nope. The only way I can see that Remember, I'm dead and Don't trust me make sense is if TC has somehow been subverted by Lord Foul. But if that were entirely true, why would Lord Foul allow him to warn her? This requires that Covenant is somehow able to persue his ends at some times, and is somehow working for Foul at others.

And then there's the various modes of Covenant communication. Why does he speak to her in a dream, and then act surprised to meet her through Anele's medium? Why ask her to find him, but then show up, without so much as a "never mind, I'm coming". Maybe it turns out that she doesn't need to find him after all, but that's not much of a story, is it? SRD wouldn't send us down a narrative dead-end like that.

Finally, why say Find me without so much as a clue as to where. "Go To Andelainscion, take a left, look under the big rock" or something. It may be he doesn't know where he is himself. Or it may be he cannot say without entailing risk. Both point to being manipulated by Foul in some way. And both point to him not waltzing up to the Lord's keep. Either he's captive, in which case he's not going to get away in a snap, or he's hiding from Foul, in which case he's not going to come out, or he's enslaved in some respect.

What can we conclude? First, that despite the rider approaching Revelstone, Linden has not found him yet. If we assume the speaker of Find me is a good Covenent, the rider must be a Despicable one. But it's not a lookalike either - Donaldson's word choice there is enough for me, anyway.

Ergo, we have different aspects of the same Covenant. Q to the E to the D.

[amanibhavam]

Well, if that theory about the fragmented TC is correct, the "find me" could mean that of all the TC fragment there is one that is truly The Covenant somehow and Linden should find Da Real Man.

[Jerico]

Wayfriend wrote:

except he knows that when she travels back in time she won't even see him. So that gets you the buzzer.

How does tha get me the buzzer? When linden first enters the Ceasure she says that they are all moments and none. So they are 'severed time'.
TC wouldn't remember it if he had seen one, or even seen Linden herself. No one remembers them because they didn't happen in 'unsevered time'.
Time was unsevered until the first Ceasure, and was severed there after. Any other explination destroys the arch. The Ceasures themselves cannot be seen, or are very rarely seen. I mean they have been around for a hundred years and encompas all of time, yet they have only taken Anele, the band of ur-viles, and some Kresh (that we know of). They must be very random, and if everyone remembered them it would change time and bring down the arch. They are as random a Joans madness.

[burgs]

TC might not realize if he saw Linden or not, but you can bet Linden would remember it. And that would alter her own past.