The Vow's flaw

[Fist and Faith]

If you've only just started reading TCTC, you might not want to read this. Too much info that you don't want to have yet.

Since GF and TIW are current in Dissecting the Land, the Vow is on my mind a lot. So here's what was wrong with it, why it failed.

Not that they gave up wives and sleep and death. Sure, I think they're crazy for doing that, but it's obviously their decision. Their innocence and passion just got the better of them. Anyway, that's not why the Vow failed.

The thing that made it self-defeating is two-fold. First, its success depended on other people. That's enough of a problem by itself to doom it. You can't guarantee that you'll do X if doing X depends on other people doing what you want them to do.

Damned Lords! When their lives are in danger, they stop to put out a burning tree!!

Or they bring back a dead Lord and send him out to fight an Illearth Stone-armed Foul, when he couldn't take Foul without the Stone! Of course Foul would master him, give him great power, and send him back to kill her!

How the hell do you protect people who won't act in a reasonably safe manner?

The other problem is closely related, but more complicated. A large part of what inspired the Vow was the glory of Kevin and his Lords. The things they did, and the things they were capable of, was truly awesome! And, obviously, they did it with Earthpower. They studied and used Earthpower. They were always trying to learn more about it; to increase their understanding of, and mastery over, it.

It may seem obvious, but it's important to understand that the Lords' mastery of the Earthpower was the result of their unbridled imagination and ambition. They weren't restricted in any way in how they went about learning about and using the Earthpower. And the result was like nothing the Haruchai had ever imagined.

The problem is that they Vowed to preserve the lives of the Lords. That is too big a thing. It required the Lords to tone it down a bit. To some degree, they didn't want Elena to gain the Power of Command, because it was a possible danger to her life. The Bloodguard couldn't do their job when the Lords were messing with such outrageous forces.

But if the Lords DID tone it down, they would no longer have been capable of inspiring such a Vow! It was the free reign of their minds and hearts that made the Lords what they were. Put limits on their minds and hearts, and they are diminished. If they had been like that when the Haruchai army had invaded the Land, the Haruchai wouldn't have been overly impressed, and they might have even defeated these Lords and their parlor tricks. And if Kevin had done what was necessary for the Bloodguard to be able to fulfill their intent, the Bloodguard would have begun saying, "These are the people for whom we gave up wives and sleep and death?! Where is their passion! Where is the spirit that so closely mirrored our own!"

The thoughts behind the Vow should have gone something like this:
"NOBODY does physical combat like us. Not the Lords, not the Giants, nobody. This is what we do - this is what we are. We will Vow to use our skills to protect them from whatever physical force assails them."

They shouldn't have tried to keep the Lords alive at all costs. Kevin should have been able to tell them what he planned without worrying about them trying to stop him. They should have told Elena who Amok was as soon as he showed up. The Lords need to use the Earthpower in the ways they think are best, the ways they know will work. They didn't go around telling the Bloodguard how to disarm a foe, and the Bloodguard shouldn't have tried to tell the Lords how to use the Earthpower. And they shouldn't have told the Lords that they couldn't risk their (the Lords') lives.

[[Syl]]

Like always, Fist, well put.

I'm wondering how far back the meme of warriors to defend the wizards goes. Reminds me a lot of something from Goodkind's books (not that I'd be surprised to see him filch something from SRD).

[duchess of malfi]

Very well thought out post, as usual, F&F. Well done!

[I'm Murrin]

I believe this subject was covered a lot in TIW and TPTP, but not many seem to notice it - I agree with your ideas about the flaws, and according to the story, the reason the Vow failed was doubt, with which a lot of your argument agrees. They were unable to trust the New Lords completely - the greatest of the Old Lords had given in to despair and they had failed to stop it.
The Vow was sworn to the Old Lords - Lords with immense might and grandeur, who passed on their titles through lineage. The Old Lords destroyed themselves, and the New Lords appeared - The New Lords were nowhere near as impressive or powerful, but the Vow stood. The problem was that they were sworn to protect the New Lords, but they had sworn to preserve the knowledge of the Old Lords, i.e. Kevin's Wards. They could either alter the Vow by allowing the New Lords knowledge that would benefit them while going against the Vow, or not give the information and risk the Lords being destroyed. Either way, the Vow is broken or weakened.
As for the Law of Death - that act was just like the Ritual of Desecration - they trusted Elena to use it correctly, and were unable to protect her when she brought that evil upon herself, casting more doubt on their Vow.

[Ryzel]

"...in their hearts they know the name of earthpower as surely as any lord."

I do not remember who said this, but I think it was one of the haruchai in the second chronicles. It is clear that the haruchai is not devoid of power, they just do not choose to serve it or wield it like the lords do.

The only time they called on the earthpower directly may have been when they spoke the vow for the first time, and doing so bound themselves to the strictures of their own making.

But knowing the haruchai as we do after six books and Gilden-fire I at least have no problem understanding that the vow was broken. The haruchai have a "great capacity for judgement" as Linden puts it in TOT I think. And they are especially harsh with their own, as we see demonstrated in the battle with the sandgorgon.

Still the vow holds, and it does not perish until the Bloodguard themselves come to doubt it. It is not broken by any external factor or failiure, or it would have been broken long ago by Kevin Landwaster. No, it is only when they themselves judge the Vow to have failed that it actually fails. Thus it is despair that destroys the vow.

[Juan Valdez]

Well Done! I fully agree.

[Fist and Faith]

Ryzel, it was Mhoram who said, to be exact, "In their way, they know the name of the Earthpower more surely than any Lord."

And I agree with what you said about how the Vow ended. And the Bloodguard never would have despaired if their Vow hadn't put demands on them that they were not capable of fulfilling. If they had merely Vowed to protect the Lords from physical harm, which the Haruchai can do better than anybody or anything, and not insisted that the Lords not risk their own lives, they could not have ever failed. Basically, "They risk themselves. It's what they do. But their way has led them to glory. We will help them achieve whatever glory they can by making sure no armies or assassins prevent them from doing what they need to do." They may have failed to protect every single Lord's life from physical harm in every single instance, but the Vow could have stood. "We will do all in our power to protect the Lords from physical harm." Everybody is capable of doing their best, and nobody can make you NOT do your best, other than yourself. And nobody does their utmost like the Haruchai.

[Damelon]

Up to your usual form F&F!

I think that Covenant put his finger on it when he got the secret of the Seventh Ward out of Morin and Bannor.

Kevin, in the end, couldn't live up to the same degree of standards that the Haurchai did. I would imagine that they would be a daunting presence given the absolutes of the vow.

[Dromond]

Covenant says to Durris outside Revelstone:

"The fact is," he said without accusation,"you've been wrong all along. You've misunderstood your own doubt from the beginning. What it means. Why it matters. First Kevin,then the other Lords, then me--ever since your people first came to the Land, you've been swearing yourselves in service to ordinary men and women who simply can't be worthy of what you offer.

The conversation is much longer and incredibly powerful--
but this quote points out what I think F&F is saying-the vow failed because no one was worthy of it. I'm not putting down the Lords- just pointing out how powerful the vow was.

[Fist and Faith]

Hmm, actually, Dromond (Again, great title. And great avatar!!), I don't see it the way Covenant does. True enough, nobody they've sworn service has been worthy of it. But I've never seen that as reason for the Haruchai to doubt. I just see it as a reason, a damned good reason!, for the one being served to doubt and despair. I don't have WGW in front of me, but I think Covenant talks about how horrible it must be to fail time and again, and want to just quit, but be surrounded by - served by! - these guys for whom the concept of quitting is so remote that they don't even age or die!! "Who am I to be served by such as them?"

[Damelon]

I will not go so far as to say that those they served were not worthy of their service. Kevin did not ask for their vow. Covenant was quite right in refusing, in the Second Chronicles, the Haruchai offer of a vow of service. He had the advantage over Kevin of knowing the costs involved for all. Also remember, in the end, what broke the Bloodguard was a failure among themselves to live up to their own vow. Korik & company met a power greater than their vow.

[Fist and Faith]

That's true. I think I'm more discussing the flaw with the Vow, rather than the thing that destroyed it. Even if it hadn't ended as it did, it was ultimately doomed. IMO, it's wrong to require someone to change their ways to suit YOUR goals, even if those goals are meant to serve them. The Lords might feel guilty, thinking, "They're giving up so very much so that they can better protect us. I guess it wouldn't kill me to do things a little different to make their job easier." Of course, the Lords were free to say, "Thanks. If you want to guard us, that's your decision. But we're not obligated to change our nature to suit this service that we didn't ask for."

And, like I said, Vowing to do something that requires the cooperation of others, even if there are no moral considerations, is problematic. You can only control your own actions, and shouldn't base your life on hoping that others do what you want them to. They often won't.

[KaosArcana]

Fist and Faith:

And I agree with what you said about how the Vow ended. And the Bloodguard never would have despaired if their Vow hadn't put demands on them that they were not capable of fulfilling. If they had merely Vowed to protect the Lords from physical harm, which the Haruchai can do better than anybody or anything, and not insisted that the Lords not risk their own lives, they could not have ever failed. Basically, "They risk themselves. It's what they do. But their way has led them to glory. We will help them achieve whatever glory they can by making sure no armies or assassins prevent them from doing what they need to do." They may have failed to protect every single Lord's life from physical harm in every single instance, but the Vow could have stood. "We will do all in our power to protect the Lords from physical harm." Everybody is capable of doing their best, and nobody can make you NOT do your best, other than yourself. And nobody does their utmost like the Haruchai.

Except I don't think the Vow would have worked at all if they had
said "We will do all in our power to protect the Lords from physical
harm."

The Vow was an act of passion on the part of the Haruchai ... it wasn't
a measured and considerate action, a conscious choice-- they were so
awed by what they had seen of the Land that they couldn't help themselves. They were swept away.

If they had just decided, "Oh, the Lords were nice to us. Let's be their
bodyguards" they probably wouldn't have even gotten the attention of
the Earthpower.

Remember Mhoram and the krill. The kind of power the Vow required
could not have arisen from anything less than a total body and soul
commitment.

[JD]

The main flaw of the Vow was, that no one was worthy of that kind of Pure Service. The Lords in the days of High Lord Kevin were great in strength, but they weren't worth giving up what the Vow required. No one was worth that sacrifice.

[[Syl]]

"Accepting the gift honors the giver."

...and the lords accepting the Bloodguards' service was their way to honor them in return. An unending Vow, somewhat as Master Fist said, must eventually come to an end because something of that magnitude (duration) requires perfection, and the people at either end of the Vow lacked that perfection, despite (perhaps because of) their best efforts.

So I, for one, say it was a good Vow. It was flawed, but its goal and result was, on the whole, quite beneficial to the Land (correct thought leads to correct action leads to correct outcome). If anything, I say the flaw was putting a time limit to it, though this error in zen-like life continues to run parallel to that of the japanese samurai class (though a ronin bloodguard is hard to imagine).

Bloodguard strong like oak, but oak will fall to wind that willow will withstand.

[Ryzel]

Of course any vow made by haruchai would be impossible to live up to by anybody. It is the nature of the haruchai to demand the impossible, and the wonder is that the bloodguard managed it as long as they did.

[Fist and Faith]

It's true that the innocent and extreme passion of the Haruchai is why they made their Vow, and that that same passion demanded more than "I'll beat up anybody who attacks you." They could have no other Vow. AND - very important - their passion and their dedication & discipline go hand in hand. So if they didn't have what it takes to make such a Vow, they wouldn't have had what it takes for the Earthpower to take notice and respond.

But let me just point out this.

"Without Vows or defiance of death, they surpassed the faith of the Bloodguard."

Maybe it wasn't a Vow, but, basically, the Ranyhyn said, "At times, the Land needs protecting against evils that we cannot fight. But you can. So we will help you fight them in the way we are able." And just as it did with the Haruchai, the Earthpower responded. The Haruchai couldn't even attempt to fulfill their Vow if they were asleep, or infirm with age, so the Earthpower removed these weaknesses. And the Ranyhyn couldn't very well take the Lords where they needed to be when they needed to be there if they didn't get the call until after it was given, because the Lords didn't always know ahead of time. But the Ranyhyn didn't try to do more than they were capable of doing, and what they were capable of didn't require anything of their riders.

[KaosArcana]

Fist wrote:

It's true that the innocent and extreme passion of the Haruchai is why they made their Vow, and that that same passion demanded more than "I'll beat up anybody who attacks you." They could have no other Vow. AND - very important - their passion and their dedication & discipline go hand in hand. So if they didn't have what it takes to make such a Vow, they wouldn't have had what it takes for the Earthpower to take notice and respond.

But let me just point out this. Quote:
"Without Vows or defiance of death, they surpassed the faith of the Bloodguard."
Maybe it wasn't a Vow, but, basically, the Ranyhyn said, "At times, the Land needs protecting against evils that we cannot fight. But you can. So we will help you fight them in the way we are able." And just as it did with the Haruchai, the Earthpower responded. The Haruchai couldn't even attempt to fulfill their Vow if they were asleep, or infirm with age, so the Earthpower removed these weaknesses. And the Ranyhyn couldn't very well take the Lords where they needed to be when they needed to be there if they didn't get the call until after it was given, because the Lords didn't always know ahead of time. But the Ranyhyn didn't try to do more than they were capable of doing, and what they were capable of didn't require anything of their riders.

I don't think the Ranyhyn example has any bearing at all on the
Bloodguard's abilities. I think the "hearing the call before it's made"
was a built in feature of the Ranyhyn ... just like it was for the
Sandgorgons. Nom was able to do the same thing ... and it would
not surprise me if the Coursers were able to do so as well--
creatures of Earthpower just have that ability.

Also, we don't know exactly WHAT it was in a person that the
Ranyhyn saw that earned him or her the right to ride a
Ranyhyn. Some Lords had the ability, and some did not--
Hile Troy was a very flawed human being, but he had a
Ranyhyn.

Donaldson really blurred the issue of the Bloodguard
stamina when he had the Haruchai do without food, water,
or sleep in the 2nd Chronicles. Four of them accompanied
Covenant and Linden ... I think he should have Ceer or
Hergrom occasionally ward Covenant or Linden when Cail
and Brinn were napping. As it is, Covenant had Bloodguard
in all but name for most of the Second Chronicles.

[Fist and Faith]

I don't think the Ranyhyn example has any bearing at all on the Bloodguard's abilities. I think the "hearing the call before it's made" was a built in feature of the Ranyhyn ... just like it was for the
Sandgorgons. Nom was able to do the same thing ... and it would not surprise me if the Coursers were able to do so as well-- creatures of Earthpower just have that ability.

Of course, we can't know which possibility is the "real" answer. It's possible that Nom never heard anybody say his name until the Kemper trapped them. The same magic that held him, forced him to kill the speaker of his name, and return to the Doom after the killing, may have been the only reason he heard his name being spoken in the first place. And the Ranyhyn may never have had the ability to hear whistles (other than those that originated within earshot, of course) until they made the decision to bear the Lords in the defense of the Earth. The Earthpower was keenly interested in the defense of the Earth. It saved Berek and taught him a lot about Lore, and helped the Haruchai to better protect the Lords. I don't have a problem thinking that it also helped the Ranyhyn serve the Lords.

Donaldson really blurred the issue of the Bloodguard stamina when he had the Haruchai do without food, water,
or sleep in the 2nd Chronicles. Four of them accompanied Covenant and Linden ... I think he should have Ceer or Hergrom occasionally ward Covenant or Linden when Cail and Brinn were napping. As it is, Covenant had Bloodguard in all but name for most of the Second Chronicles.

Agreed! It would have been nice to see a difference between the Bloodguard and non-Bloodguard Haruchai.

[Earthblood]

JD wrote:

The main flaw of the Vow was, that no one was worthy of that kind of Pure Service. The Lords in the days of High Lord Kevin were great in strength, but they weren't worth giving up what the Vow required. No one was worth that sacrifice.

I think it's more a matter of no one is capable of that kind of Pure Service.
Yes, the Haruchai became beings of Earthpower when they spoke their Vow. However, they are still, in the end, humans creatures, capable of independent thought, forming opinions and making decisions of their own free will. They are NOT like a machine, which is programmed to protect the Lords at all cost - no exception. They: (1) have to make independent decisions, based on their (considerable) knowledge, on how to handle situations they come up against, and (2) are capable of making mistakes.
That, IMO is the flaw - they are not pure Earthpower - they are an alloy of formidable human strength and Earthpower. A human is not capable of completely ignoring all previous experiences and the opinions and judgements formed in the mind & heart. Therefore, at some point (IMO), it was inevitable that they would come up against a situation that contradicted the purity of service and the humaness of a judgement that needed to be made and that judgement to action would end up being incorrect.

Do we go back & protect the Lords as they get eaten by wolves trying to save Grimmerhorde or do we carry out the "programmed" mission, leave the Lords and continue to Coerci?

Do we give High Lord Elena & TC the info they need to make Amok "talk" (the "machine" would give the answer to any direct question) or do we withhold, because we remember what Kevin did with this knowledge and don't want to be made to look foolish or weak again?

Do we guard the Illearth Stone when we have control of it & wait for the Lords to make a decision about what to do or do we take it ourselves and head for Foul's Creche, because, damn it - WE ARE THE BLOODGUARD -EARTHPOWER INCARNATE! We've waited on these mere mortals long enough and are tired of their ineffective attemps to preserve those things that moved us to make this Vow in the first place!

No human is capable of providing infallible, pure service forever.

:earthy