Is the Land real?

[Prince of Amber]

Well of course not, However..,

There was a topic on the old Forum - 'Establishing the reality of the Land' (I'll leave it to the Link Lord to provide the necessary) it's a subject I'm very interested in, so consider this..,

In The Wounded Land both Linden and Covenant see Lord Foul in the fire behind Haven Farm (when Joan was to be sacrificed and Covenant gives himself up to take her place) They are both awake and so cannot be sharing the same dream. Is this direct proof that the Land is real or is there some other explanation that still makes Covenants unbelief possible? I don't know why but I have always thought that Covenant accepts the reality of the Land during the 2nd Chronicles but I have only just started them again so I'll keep you posted

[Bannor]

I think SD refused to tell us that the Land was real (directly or indirectly) so that there would always be that question. I also believe that one would HAVE to believe that the Land is real. Too many details to not be. I mean, who dreams in that much detail for that long? And others sharing dreams? Then there was the published piece of Sd's that happened away from TC and LA. If there's action away from the main character, it would seem to follow that the Land is real. Still, I guess one could find arguments for both sides. I just think it's real. (Besides, where would I [Bannor] be if the Land is not real?!)

[Hearthcoal]

Bet this is what you're looking for

Establishing the Reality of the Land

[Bannor]

Thanks, Hearthcoal. That certainly was an interesting thread. Some of my same views were expressed, and some new ones as well. Very illuminating!

[Hearthcoal]

Hey, just because someone else has said "it" once or said something similar, doesn't mean you shouldn't say it again. You're even likely to say it better.

After all, Repetition is the mother of learning. Repetitio est mater studiorum.


(Care to know how many times I have repeated that Latin phrase and still haven't learned it? I have it written down for reference because I like it.)

[Prince of Amber]

As outsiders looking in, we understand that the 'adventures' are actually happening, I was just looking for places in the books where it should be obvious to Covenant that its real and yet he persists in his unbelief (as he sees it as the only way to keep himself sane and alive)
Like trying to send Linden back to our World so that she can heal his wound (in The One tree) how could he then not believe in the Power of White Gold (and hence the Land) if he expects to use it as a tool in his real world?
I'm not looking for mistakes by SD, just trying to figure out where, and why, Thomas Covenant finally accepts the reality of the Land, making it possible to give up his life for it.

By the way Bannor, how did you get over to this World? can you get back? and perhaps take someone with you? I have a hankering to go camping in Andelain

[Vexis Larseker]

This is a favorite subject of mine to think about regarding the Chronicles. I followed the link and there's been a lot of interesting debate on the topic! I'll chime in with my view.

I always felt that the First Chronicles did a pretty good job of keeping the Land's reality ambiguous. In the other thread, it was pointed out that we get to see the action from the viewpoint of other characters besides TC, and that this proves that the Land is real. In my opinion, it is one argument in favor of the Land's reality, but I do not find it all that compelling.

First, why did SRD describe events when TC was not around? He had concerns about presenting these events from the viewpoints of the other characters; he lists it as one of the reasons Gilden Fire was not included in the original story. Yet, he presented them anyway. Why? I think his overriding reason had to be for the coherence of the story. Many of the events in the last two books of the First Chronicles take place out of Covenant's view. This is logical; if all actions only took place where Covenant was present, it would be pretty obvious that the Land was not real. Covenant, if he is dreaming (or having a psychotic breakdown), is dreaming a whole world, and there have to be events occurring at other places in the world, or it would seem static and unreal.

I'm guessing that SRD was faced with four choices regarding these events. The first would be to only describe events that occur when Thomas Covenant is present. Thus, all of the events that took place from Hile Troy's point of view in the second book, or Mhoram's in the third book would never be described. The story would lose much of its coherence though and we would be left with many questions. If we did not know about Mhoram's attack on Satansfist at the siege of Revelstone, we would not know why Elena's attention was distracted at the Colossus of the Fall, and Triock was able to knock the ring from her hand. Or why there was a Giant on the gibbet at Gallows Howe. Or what had happened to Lord Verement. Moreover, some of SRD's most evocative writing would have had to have been left out.

SRD's second choice might have been to periodically have other characters show up and relate to Covenant what events had occurred out of his sight (like Tull telling of the end of the Giants to Mhoram and Troy). This would seem artificial and would probably be very irritating to continually have characters providing flashbacks (some of them chapters long, as would be required for Troy's chapters in The Illearth War. Moreover, when would a character have had time to tell Covenant about the siege of Revelstone?

The third and fourth choices are to tell these events from a narrator's point of view, or to tell it from the viewpoints of the other characters in the story (the choice that SRD made). I submit that these two alternatives are not that different. Either way, these events are taking place out of TC's view. The only difference between the two choices is that telling the events from another character's viewpoint lets us, as the Omniscient Reader, see that character's feelings regarding the event, thus giving the event more narrative impact.

And that is why I do not regard our views of these characters' thoughts as proof of the Land's reality. We are the Omniscient Readers, privy to the events of the story and the thoughts of the characters even if TC isn't. Even if the events and thoughts of the characters are being imagined by TC subconsciously, so that he is not aware of them consciously (which he isn't; he doesn't know the Giants have all been killed until Foamfollower tells him in the third book).

As I said, I thought the First Chronicles kept things very ambiguous. One of my favorite points of evidence against the Land is in The Illearth War. At the beginning of the book, Covenant sees a blind person while still in the real world. Then, upon entering the Land, he meets Hile Troy, who is also blind. Coincidence? Or did TC's sight of the blind person manifest itself in his delusion of the Land? The scene where Covenant sees the blind person in the real world is not a large one, but it did not seem like it was just a throwaway detail put in by SRD.

In the Second Chronicles, the Land is definitely shown as real, in my opinion. I don't buy TC's suggestion of a shared dream, and Linden's possession of the ring at the end of the Chronicles is the most damning evidence. I don't think Linden took the ring off Covenant's finger; I think it must have appeared on hers. Perhaps the white gold is not subject to physical discontinuity that everything else has always shown when returning from the Land?

[Bannor]

Hail, Prince of Amber! I wish I knew how I got here. After being defeated at the isle of The One Tree, I woke up in Louisiana (seems a cruel jest). I continue on, hoping to be sent back to the Land, but making the most use of my time here (or am I just dreaming all this up?).
Wonderful discourse Vexis! I agree that there are too many other viewpoints for the Land to be considered anything but real. Who else dreams in a ratio of years to minutes? (don't remember the exact ratio)

[Skyweir]

really excellent discourse Vexis!! .. wow that was really pleasurable reading .. You raised exceptionally interesting points that have never been raised or even considered before ..

It was also a souce of immense pleasure re-visiting that really enjoyable thread .. thanx HC .. even though we didnt raise the same points you did Vexis .. I still like some of our arguements

And it made me realise how much I miss Juntel's input around here .. I wonder where J is these days???

Vexis .. I havent seen you around lately .. I do hope you plan on returning with some more eloquent analyses ..

[Tohrm]

Vexis, you have hit many of the proverbial 'nails on the head!'
I believe also that the land is real, even though throughout the first chrons TC chooses to believe that they are not. But he 'admits' to his belief in two places. The first is in the 1st chrons when he implores Mhoram to cease his summoning while trying to save the little girl from being bitten by the rattler. The 2nd time is in the 2nd chrons by trying to send LA back to save him.
The question I have is this: Is TC a hipocrite in his unbelief? Or is his unbelief just a mechanism to help him retain his sanity while he is going back and forth between the land and home?
If he believed that the land was real, it would be so easy to just stay there. But that would leave too strong of an artifact behind upon his death. It would soon fall into the hands of LF (soon being decades or centuries, we know that LF bides his time).
But by holding fast to his disbelief, he can then make the transition back to his real life in the real world without much more thought than saying 'man, that was some vivid dream!'

[amanibhavam]

well, it's not that easy, to stay there for good in the Land... too many ties that bound him to the "real" world, even if all the people he had known had rejected him...

I think his situation is akin to the following:

Imagine you are a man who has dreamed since his childhood that he'll be an astronaut, exploring galaxies, fly spaceships and all. No you are 35 years old, you are freshly divorced. One day you get an offer: tha NASA has managed to build a new kind of spaceship with which it will be possible to reach Alpha Centauri in 25 years, as it seems there might be life found there. You are selected as the man to go -there is no room for another in the ship. You know you will not come back. There you are, the dream of your life coming true, you can see the Void in its beauty, see the stars in their magnificence, see an entirely alien solar system, you can be the hero of mankind... but you loose everything else. Would you go?

[danlo]

Did u just read Bester or Aldiss??

[amanibhavam]

neither

[Tohrm]

Amy, you have to remember that TC was as good as dead at the end of the 1st chrons. Sure, the creator gave him back his life in our world, (and that brings up a whole lot of other questions that we could deal with, and I think that I will start a new topic on one of them), but he could have just as easily swung the other way. The dilemna of it!
At home, he is treated as nothing more than a roach on the supper table. Whereas in the land, he would have been treated as nothing less than a lord. He would have been revered, and his opinion would have mattered in all weighty decisions that would have been made.
If he had died in our world, there would only have been a sense of relief from both the townspeople and from Joan.
I don't know about you, but I am a people person. I need people in my life. To be shunned by all people would probably drive me to the point of suicide. I actually look at TC's quandary as more like being the only person alive on the planet. Nobody wants to deal with him at all. It seems as if they would rather he didn't even talk to them on the phone. I think that you can see which way I am leaning towards. But I still say that he chose the direction that he did for the simple reason that when he did die, he would leave behind too strong of an artifact (the white gold ring).

[amanibhavam]

At home, he is treated as nothing more than a roach on the supper table. Whereas in the land, he would have been treated as nothing less than a lord. He would have been revered, and his opinion would have mattered in all weighty decisions that would have been made

well, yes, but the situation was no different when he first went to the Land, still, he could not immerse himself happily into the beauty and health of her

[Tohrm]

Ah, but there is a difference. The difference is that at the end of the 1st chrons. he knows that the land is real. He won't admit it even to himself out loud, but he as much as admitted it to Mhoram and the high council when they were trying to summon him the last time. He begged them to end the summoning so that he could save the little girls' life. Now that tells me that he knows! He knows the land is real! But he is the Unbeliever, and to keep up his image of disbelief he never admits that it is real. Even at the end, when the creator offers to give him proof, he says no. (I'm going to have to find the exact quote, I know it's there).

"I can teach you to believe that your experiences in the Land have been real."
"No." It's not that easy. "You'll drive me insane."

Now I believe that he knows it is real, but that he won't 100 % admit it to himself. As long as there is no positive proof, he can still say that it is nothing more than a dream. He reminds me of the man from Missouri, "Show me". But in TC's case, it is the direct opposite. "Don't show me!"

[Skyweir]

sure TC was definitely happier in denial .. and who wouldnt be? .. right? It would have been way harder to deal .. knowing that he had raped a young girl in reality and not just in an awful dream .. so sure he fought accepting the Land as a reality for as long as he could..

but I think his fight against belief went beyond that .. it was as you say .. to retain his sanity. You are right the Creator which TC engaged in conversation .. told him that he would be revered in the Land if he stayed .. and live out his days in the health and beauty the Land had to offer .. but TC rejected the offer for his sanity's sake.

and to assert his desperate bid of sanity he declared

I told Foul I dont believe in him. I dont believe in you either!

then as quite a contradiction he goes on to say ..

You didnt give me a chance to earn anything. You put me in the Land witout my approval or consent - even without my knowledge. All I did was see the difference between health and disease. Well, its enough for me.

you said ..

If he believed that the land was real, it would be so easy to just stay there

For TC it wouldnt have been too easy .. and as he proved .. his need to return to his isolated existence was far his preferred choice than to stay in an idyllic existence where he would be revered from noon till night.

He battled long and hard to endure his life in the face of his leperosy .. his wife leaving him

.. and his return to his own world .. enabled him to regain some semblance of self-respect or some even modicum of his former self ..

.. even after all the injury inflicted on him by public rejection and revulsion and being abandoned by his wife. He went on to return to his writing again

.. and what little achievement it may seem to us .. to his own sense of self-worth .. it spoke volumes! He was entirely different when he returned to the Land in the 2nd chrons.

To TC it would have been too easy .. and he couldnt accept such a gift that he didnt fully earn .. and his guilt would never allow him to ever believe he would be worthy of such a life.

[Tohrm]

Well, he now has it in death. He is stuck in the land, probably as no more than a specter in Andelain. So he will never be able to have a true 'rest'. So is that not still being there? He will still find himself revered. And unless LF twists things around again, he is going to be probably put on a pedestal right next to the high lords and the creator.

[Skyweir]

true enuff .. inescapable and inevitable truth!!

His true journey now .. will be one of acceptance .. on another level .. accepting his new existence .. his revered role .. his past .. all of it?

time is now on his side .. one would imagine ..

[Tohrm]

I just hope that it does not twist him as it did with Kevin. Then again it just might be that Kevin was twisted anyway. He let his despair take him over. I can't see anybody in their right mind invoking the ritual of descration. Even though he thought that it would undo Foul. It might have weakened him, but at least at that point, he was immortal.
One thing that I have been wondering about. Foul is the creators brother, at least that is the general consensus. What would happen if Foul got loose? Can an immortal being 'kill' another immortal being? Or is the most that they can do is imprison one another?
After all, immortal can mean a couple of things. It can mean life without ending, but it can also mean not as we are. We are mortal, doing and existing within our mortal sphere of influence. But are the creator or LF mortal? I don't think so!