Time Travel & Linden's choices-Warning:Unblackened Spoil

[Rick Stuckwisch]

"Other than the violation of free will (which a lot of people seem to have trouble accepting) the problem with a linear loop is it leads to an infinite regression. . . ."

This comment caught my attention, because it made me think (whether logically or not) of a Mobius strip, which appears to be the shape in which Jeremiah constructed the car tracks in his room (into an Arch of Time?). . . .

So, I'm wondering if the "time-line" can also be twisted into a kind of Mobius strip, so to speak, in which one travels (temporally) in "circles" alternating back and forth between an "inner" and "outer" loop (?) And perhaps there is a way in which Jeremiah is a key to how this is possible, without destroying the Arch of Time (?)

Just thinking out loud here, but your discussion and comments have intrigued me

[bhoywonder]

This comment caught my attention, because it made me think (whether logically or not) of a Mobius strip, which appears to be the shape in which Jeremiah constructed the car tracks in his room (into an Arch of Time?). . . .

Same here: this freaked me out when I was first shown this when I was about seven years old and at Primary School. If you draw a line on one face and follow this round you come right back to the beginning, so it's a three-dimensional shape with only one face! One interesting aspect I was shown is that if you then carefully cut this shape long-ways down the pencil mark you get two interlocking rings? (Gee - I wonder where you could get hold of two rings - in white gold perhaps?!)

I always imagined the AoT though as, well, an arch shape, something like a big golden rainbow, but then (before I saw the illustrations in Gilden Fire) I used to imagine the Bloodguard as being like the Security Officers (the guys in red jumpers) in early Star Trek episodes... I suspect it's the drugs.

The only way that this could be true is if SRD subscribes to a many-worlds implementation of the Law of Time. Simply put: Every choice (quantum probability) results is a fork of an observed worldline. You can travel to the past and kill your grandfather because your original worldline is fine, you are no longer following it instead you follow the fork where you showed up and killed your grandfather. Free will is preserved, but for the purposes of the story not very interesting as there are a nearly infinite number of universes with various outcomes.

I've already been there! I got shouted down a wee bit; I suspect it gives people headaches!

There's a lot of well established scientific theory surrounding multi-dimensional realities, and it would have been nice if SRD perhaps had even had someone (Linden?) raising at least the possibility in their mind that quantum probabilities would exist? I think if I was about to travel time then it would raise questions in my mind!?

Of course, quantum probabilities are problematical to the story, not least because in at least half of these alternative 'realities' Foul would have won out previously (and the Arch of Time already destroyed?)

The principal problem with this is that I always thought of the AoT as ruling the multiverse, including our own 'reality' - did SRD not mention this somewhere? I always got the impression that the destruction of the AoT would have a detrimental affect on the real world???

[IVB]

This comment caught my attention, because it made me think (whether logically or not) of a Mobius strip, which appears to be the shape in which Jeremiah constructed the car tracks in his room (into an Arch of Time?). . . .

So, I'm wondering if the "time-line" can also be twisted into a kind of Mobius strip, so to speak, in which one travels (temporally) in "circles" alternating back and forth between an "inner" and "outer" loop (?) And perhaps there is a way in which Jeremiah is a key to how this is possible, without destroying the Arch of Time (?)

I suppose that this is possible, but does that sound like SRD’s style? I think we are in for a major change, after all these are the last chronicles… A (Stephen King Dark Tower spoiler)

Spoiler

time loop ala Roland in the Dark Tower

is kind of lame in my opinion. This sort of repetition was one of the things that weakened the Matrix Trilogy as well.

Speaking of arches and circles, readers of Larry Niven know that if your world is a ring with you living on the inside surface you see an arch stretching up and over the sky. The arch of time could be a circle, but since people only exist at one point at any time on the “inside” it appears to be an arch… I guess this could be further support of a circular time theory. I just hope SRD does not take this path… it’s not very imaginative.

I should have thought of this sooner, but it’s been a long time since I took any comparative religion or philosophy courses. The issue of free will here is analogous to predestiny in Judeo-Christian theology. If God is omniscient and omnipotent, existing at all time then humanity as no free will, no choice because God has already decided everything. The normal answer to this is God’s infinite power and love for God’s creation. To love something is to let it be free, and God is powerful enough to have the cake and eat it too. Free will exists because God wants it that way. I always thought that this was a little too easy, and presupposes knowledge of God. Perhaps SRD envisions something similar with the AoT, it encompasses all time but does so in a way that permits free will. Yet another paradox…

[IVB]

I always imagined the AoT though as, well, an arch shape, something like a big golden rainbow, but then (before I saw the illustrations in Gilden Fire) I used to imagine the Bloodguard as being like the Security Officers (the guys in red jumpers) in early Star Trek episodes... I suspect it's the drugs.

They all had names, they should not have died!

The AoT could be a circle, but appears to be an arch, see my comments above.

The principal problem with this is that I always thought of the AoT as ruling the multiverse, including our own 'reality' - did SRD not mention this somewhere? I always got the impression that the destruction of the AoT would have a detrimental affect on the real world???

I don't remember, was it in the GI or some other location?

[IVB]

So, I'm wondering if the "time-line" can also be twisted into a kind of Mobius strip, so to speak, in which one travels (temporally) in "circles" alternating back and forth between an "inner" and "outer" loop (?) And perhaps there is a way in which Jeremiah is a key to how this is possible, without destroying the Arch of Time (?)

A circular manifestation of time still does not handle the problem of infinite repetition of a time traveler. An incrementing infinite number of Lindens would show up in the past. I would really like to see SRD notes on the time travel rules he decide to use for his plot

[bhoywonder]

Speaking of arches and circles, readers of Larry Niven know that if your world is a ring with you living on the inside surface you see an arch stretching up and over the sky. The arch of time could be a circle, but since people only exist at one point at any time on the “inside” it appears to be an arch… I guess this could be further support of a circular time theory. I just hope SRD does not take this path… it’s not very imaginative.

IVB: thanks for your comments, with which I wholeheartedly agree. I'm not convinced SRD has read Larry Niven, Arthur C. Clarke, Isaac Asimov or any of the SF gurus. I hope he's not trying to recreate the wheel there!

I don't remember, was it in the GI or some other location?

Perhaps I imagined this? Does someone else recall? Or is this the drugs again?

Rick: The thing about a mobius strip is that it has no outer and inner strip: it is all outer (or inner, depending upon your viewpoint)!

incrementing infinite number of Lindens would show up in the past

An infinitesmal number of Lindens would certainly prove problematical (especially at 'hormonal' times I should imagine!) and I also would love to see what rules he's playing by. SRD had his fingers burnt slightly in the past by not knowing his science when he embarked on the Gap series, and it was only by "nerds" (such as we) pointing out what was wrong that he corrected matters somewhat in later books. I would HATE to think he's making up the time travel thing as he goes along (and, I'm ashamed to say, wished he'd left well alone).

Is there still no-one out there who knows anything about Dr Who?

[bhoywonder]

By the way, have a look at this, which examines time travel by virtue of a Mobius Time Loop:

www.cix.co.uk/~antcom/mtl.html

I especially liked the comment (from the website):

Perhaps this is one way of showing how Time itself could be “twisted” in a higher dimension when it comes to time travelling and is able to cope with any so-called paradox. Then whether this Mobius Time Loop is in fact a single universe or that each “side” is a parallel universe splitting at the time travel trip is perhaps something to discuss later.

[Jerico]

The note that the old man gave TC in LFB is where your getting that the 'real' world bites it if TC loses.

IVB, I agree that SRD will break the LOT in the end of the story. The Land is 'doomed', the Last Dark etc..

In TPTP TC destroyed the original staff and then 3500 years later, Linden made the new one. So yes the Arch can stand a 'missing' staff.
Lets put it this way, Esmer went back and got the staff from the last of the dying Waynhim at point F in the timeline and brought it forward to the present. Linden believes she went back to get it. Then she does go back to get it but it is point E on the timeline. What changes? What part of free will has Esmer lost? He only went back once to get it, he only made one decission. He must be at least 3500 years old. He is Cails son, yet also Elohim. He can 'read time' like his kin. He isn't hindered by time.

The Caesures started about 100 years ago. It's not how far back they go, it's when they started. That is when Linden gave Joan the ring.

I too believe it was Lindens actions, I'm just not sure 'which' action. Perhaps it was the Caesure that she created and then ended in front of Revelstone? Maybe the ending of one with the Staff is what set TC free? As far as we know it's the only one that has been stopped!

[IVB]

By the way, have a look at this, which examines time travel by virtue of a Mobius Time Loop:

www.cix.co.uk/~antcom/mtl.html

I especially liked the comment (from the website):

That is an interesting read, but I think the author neglected to mention some of the implications of a mobius time loop. Notice that the loop contains two worldliness both bound from 1930 to 1999 the time traveler is born, experiences life with his grandmother, travels to the past and kills her. Now he lives up to 1999 in a grandmotherless world. What happens next? This model indicates that he should show up in 1930 on his original world line. Where he meets his past self and they both take the next trip, then three of them go, then four, then five…. assuming that they can all live so long. Even the ones that die off some point in the loop leave gradually accumulating remains… until one or both world lines are full of decayed time travelers. If you say that the 1999 boundary in the grandmotherless world is a reset point then you have to accept that the traveler is unable to affect any time past 1999 or before 1930, what happened to the rest of time?

[IVB]

In TPTP TC destroyed the original staff and then 3500 years later, Linden made the new one. So yes the Arch can stand a 'missing' staff.
Lets put it this way, Esmer went back and got the staff from the last of the dying Waynhim at point F in the timeline and brought it forward to the present. Linden believes she went back to get it. Then she does go back to get it but it is point E on the timeline. What changes? What part of free will has Esmer lost? He only went back once to get it, he only made one decission. He must be at least 3500 years old. He is Cails son, yet also Elohim. He can 'read time' like his kin. He isn't hindered by time.

I was not saying that the staff was destroyed. If Esmer traveled to the past, and removed the staff to the present then his free will was violated, assuming a staffless universe existed between point F and his present. Effect proceeds cause and we have exactly the same problem we have discussed with Linden. If he traveled to the past from a history where the staff was never lost, simply resting in a cave surrounded by waynhim skeletons and overlooked by the masters (I doubt this would happen given their health sense and the waynhim ward would eventually fail) for 3500 then Esmer changed history in a major way. That 3500 year history of Law being supported by the Staff was destroyed not the staff itself. The Same applies to Linden traveling to point E, except now she changes the history where Esmer removed the staff. In either case we still have the problem of temporal repetition, with the waynhim seeing 1 Esmer/Linden, then 2 then 3 and so on until an infinite number are all showing up for the staff without somehow affecting Esmer/Linden 1 so that he/she can complete the initial loop.

If history has to remain unchanged to preserve the Arch of Time, then the travelers actions in the past must be a part of history. They have no free will to avoid a trip to the past because they have already done so.

The Caesures started about 100 years ago. It's not how far back they go, it's when they started. That is when Linden gave Joan the ring.

The ceasures started 100 year before Linden’s present time in the land, but they encompass all points of time from the beginning up to their creation+current time (that is my understanding at least)

[Jerico]

In re-reading my own post I realised that Esmer wouldn't have had to travel to the past. He was alive at that point. If he could 'read' future events he could have taken the staff somewhere else (future?). He could have waited until the last Waynhim was dead and then taken it. This way he stopped it from being found, and also deprived it from the Land. This would fill his need for good and evil.
I think it will have to be something like this that will solve the problem of free will. It is just a guess on it being Esmer, but he was there. This way history remains unchanged.

[IVB]

In re-reading my own post I realised that Esmer wouldn't have had to travel to the past. He was alive at that point. If he could 'read' future events he could have taken the staff somewhere else (future?). He could have waited until the last Waynhim was dead and then taken it. This way he stopped it from being found, and also deprived it from the Land. This would fill his need for good and evil.
I think it will have to be something like this that will solve the problem of free will. It is just a guess on it being Esmer, but he was there. This way history remains unchanged.

Think about it for a second. Last waynhin dies at point F, Esmer walks over and hides the staff or slips forward in time, it does not matter either way.

Linden travels back in time to point E and takes the staff. HISTORY IS CHANGED, there is no staff for Esmer to hide, and the Arch breaks.

If we are told that the Arch can be preserved during time travel only if the past is not changed, then Linden's trip has to be a part of history before she goes...

[Jerico]

Not so. Esmer took it at point F, but Linden retrieved it at point E.
We are not told any 'rules' about time travel. In fact History is changed because Linden goes back to get it. Either way it was changed, only now (Esmer theory) the change is small. SRD says that the LOT can bend, and repairs itself quickly.

Two things. If Linden did go get it 'both' times then the future is mapped out. Second if she did get it 'both' times, then the past is changed no matter which of the 'both' times we're talking about.

The Esmer theory 'fit's' without either of Lindens paradox's. He has been around a long time. If he manuvered Linden to go back (for the Demondin?) or some other agenda it will be come clear (I hope).

Linden and Esmer talk about it for a time in the book, but not enough to fully understand. Only that the Staff hasn't done anything for a long time, and that if she goes back she can't do anything to upset that.

[IVB]

Not so. Esmer took it at point F, but Linden retrieved it at point E.
We are not told any 'rules' about time travel. In fact History is changed because Linden goes back to get it. Either way it was changed, only now (Esmer theory) the change is small. SRD says that the LOT can bend, and repairs itself quickly.

Two things. If Linden did go get it 'both' times then the future is mapped out. Second if she did get it 'both' times, then the past is changed no matter which of the 'both' times we're talking about.

The Esmer theory 'fit's' without either of Lindens paradox's. He has been around a long time. If he manuvered Linden to go back (for the Demondin?) or some other agenda it will be come clear (I hope).

Linden and Esmer talk about it for a time in the book, but not enough to fully understand. Only that the Staff hasn't done anything for a long time, and that if she goes back she can't do anything to upset that.

Ah, but now we have the classic grandparent terminator problem.

At point E when Linden takes the staff, point F ceases to exist since there was no staff for Esmer to grab. So the Staff of Law would never have been moved forward in time and the Masters would have been able to find it and Linden would have no reason to travel to the past Esmer would remove the staff then Linden would travel to the past change history and not have to travel so Esmer takes the staff Linden takes the staff Esmer takes the staff and so on and so on.

Here is another problem with the Esmer theory. Just how far into the future did Esmer take the staff. Past the time of Linden's trip, if so once she makes the trip, that much history is undone including the time that Linden departs! How much do you think the Arch can stand before it breaks? Remember what Esmer told Linden: “The Elohim respect the Law of Time. It preserves the Earth. They have no wish to rouse the Worm of the World's End. To that extent, I am bound by their Wurd.” Esmer can not break the Law of Time, your theory requires him to cause that to happen.

A temporal loop with Linden predestined to get the Staff fits better. The past is not changed since the trip was always a part of history. This is a bending of the Law of Time in reguards to causality and free-will with side effects that will be revealed in later books but the history is preserved. Consider Esmer's admission, he can not cause the the past to be changed and break the Law, but he can help Linden as long as she was destined to travel to the past...

There is still the problem of infinite Lindens showing up. Time travel stories suck that way. I always thought when Star Trek resorted to such plot lines that they had hit the bottom of the imagination well. SRD's only saving grace is that Time is the last law he has to break... Time will tell if he handles it well.

[Jerico]

My point is that Esmer didn't take the staff to the future. At point F in Esmer's 'real' time he took the Staff and hid it outside the Land. There it sits doing nothing for 3000 or so years. Along comes Linden and puts 2 and 2 together with Esmers help and dares the Past (point E) to go get it.
Esmer has done nothing to the Law of Time. It was Linden who did it, but it really changes nothing as far as the use of the SOL. History was changed, but it is changed no matter which way you look at it. Linden did go to the past and get the SOL and the Arch didn't break.
Esmers point F is wiped out, but I don't see that it matters, it's fantasy. Magic doesn't have to make sense to us, but it would help if it didn't turn out to be an old Star Trek rereun

[bhoywonder]

I think you could both be right, guys: it just depends on which school of thought SRD's rules have been drawn up following, i.e.

Perspective Number 1.

To negate the possibility of paradoxes in time travel, Professor Stephen Hawking (no less) invokes a 'cosmic censor', an omnipotent entity that intervenes to prevent the occurrence of a paradox.

It operates something like this: if a man goes back in time and attempts to alter his personal history, for example by trying to kill his father then the cosmic censor would have it that the murdered man was not really his father. What if he attempts to commit a form of retrograde suicide by killing his earlier self? Presumably in this kind of situation the cosmic censor takes a more active role, depending on the method employed. If, for example, the time traveller elects to shoot his earlier self, then the gun will misfire or the bullet will simply miss. The cosmic censor, then, ensures that any and every attempt by the time traveller to alter his personal history will be frustrated.

Perspective Number 2

An alternative theory is that the cosmic censor is not required at all and that there is no such thing as a time paradox! After all there is no paradox with travelling in 3 dimensions. The universe (or indeed the 'Arch of Time') doesn't fall apart if I go to the shops and come back again so why should there be a paradox in four dimensions?

Why only four dimensions? Well, there have to be at least four but why not five, or six, or even a hundred. There is no reason whatsoever to limit ourselves to four, and a great deal to be gained by assuming more. This is not a new idea, and scientists have used it to make significant progress towards constructing a fully unified theory of nature. Currently, the most popular candidate is super string theory, which requires ten dimensions.

However, lets not get too complicated and start by assuming five dimensions. We all live on a three dimensional surface of a multi-spatial dimensional manifold, and to move a whole universe you just have to move from one three dimensional surface to another. The extra dimensions are those that connect the 3D surfaces together. In terms of temporal dimensions we live on a single dimension!! Time appears linear to us. But one can cross over to other lines of time by moving through the 2nd temporal dimension. To do this a double-dimension time machine (SRD's ceasure) is required; masses of extra terms have to be added to the equations of Einstein!

Now back to the paradox of the Father killed by his son. In five dimensions we can finally lay to rest our paradox as follows. The man travels back in time. In doing so he enters a reverse time, mirror image, of our Universe. When he starts moving forwards in time again, the same direction as ourselves, he is in an alternative Universe. There he is at liberty to kill the man who would have fathered not him, but his alternative in that Universe. There is then no paradox: his father, unmurdered, inhabits an entirely different Universe, some distance in the fifth dimension from the one in which the murder is committed. If there is a cosmic censor, his task now is simply to prevent time travellers getting back to their home Universes.

Headache anyone?

The Star Trek writers were not scientists, but they consulted theoretical scientists (particularly in later NG episodes and DS9). SRD is not a scientist either and at least Star Trek doesn't ignore science altogether, as SRD has 'previous' for. I just hope he has followed one theory or the other, and not run roughshod over the theories of some of the most brilliant minds on the planet!

[Loredoctor]

There is also another way you can handle paradoxes; is anyone familar with the Quantum theory, Sum over Histories? This negates the necessity for multiple universes. Basically, every particle exists with variations of itself - like a particle existing in various states. You can work out the probability for existing in one state; other states can exist, but are unlikely and tend to cancel out. I realise this theory deals with the microscopic, but it is not that difficult to apply it to the macroscopc; instead, every person exists in a state of multiple history or phases - the one we are in is the most probable. However, going back in time and changing the past simply shifts the probability of events.

By the way, excellent post, Bhoywonder. However, String Theory posits 11 dimensions now.

[bhoywonder]

Thanks very much Loremaster. You're quite correct and I should have said "at least ten" dimensions.

Aah! You refer to Richard Feynman: his QED theory, of course, was amazing in that it equally applies to both the microscopic and macroscopic levels, is totally experimentally verified and is probably the most accurate theory ever devised. Doesn't mean that it's common sense of course...

This is a quote from the net that explains pretty well what "sum over histories" is in essence:

Feyman's "sum over histories" explains reality even better than Newton's seemingly incontrovertable laws of Nature, which in actuality, decribe only the end result of the sum over histories. Where Newton described one reality, the one observed by all of us, Feynman described every microscopic reality, each as real as the other, and all culminating in the one macroscopic reality as described by Newton. Feynman described particles moving faster than light, and even backwards in time - all of which is explained in his "strange theory of light and matter", and all of which is endlessly verifiable in the laboratory.

[IVB]

My point is that Esmer didn't take the staff to the future. At point F in Esmer's 'real' time he took the Staff and hid it outside the Land. There it sits doing nothing for 3000 or so years. Along comes Linden and puts 2 and 2 together with Esmers help and dares the Past (point E) to go get it.
Esmer has done nothing to the Law of Time. It was Linden who did it, but it really changes nothing as far as the use of the SOL. History was changed, but it is changed no matter which way you look at it. Linden did go to the past and get the SOL and the Arch didn't break.
Esmers point F is wiped out, but I don't see that it matters, it's fantasy. Magic doesn't have to make sense to us, but it would help if it didn't turn out to be an old Star Trek rereun

Say Esmer took the Staff back to his old room at his mom’s house under the ocean and hid it under his bed with old socks and pictures of nude nicor. The Staff of Law is what it supports: Law. It interacts with the environment reguardless if it used or not. A perfect example of this is its affect on the waynhim. It supports Law by simply existing. This is why LF was able to corrupt Earthpower to create the Sunbane. Law had been weekend by the breaking of the Law of Death and then by the destruction of the original Staff. If Esmer concealed the staff in one timeline in order to get Linden to travel to the past then 3000 plus years of Law being supported and interacting with the Staff is changed, it never existed. By manipulating Linden is this way, Esmer is violating the Wurd of the Elohim.

I agree that fantasy does not have to make sense in every respect, but Donaldson has set up a set of Laws for the chronicles and if they are to remain internally consistent then he must adhere to them. Esmer’s prohibition against changing the past seems to rule out cosmic sensor, multiverse or even the Sum of Histories theory that Loremaster brought up because in any of those implementations of time, the past can be “safely” changed with no danger to the Arch of Time.

[Jerico]

But we have no corruption of earthpower and no sunbane. So whats to say that the Staff wasn't present somewhere in the world? Nothing says that Kevins dirt is to blame by a missing SOL. It also dosen't prevent Caesures since Linden created one about ten feet from it.
I'm not saying I know what Esmer did with it, i'm just saying that SRD has many ways to go with this. Free will is important to the series, and I for one don't want to have the future mapped out in this series.
If Linden went back, because her future self did, then it is mapped out.

TC might have taken it? He could even be trapped in it. SRD can go any way he wants.
History was changed by Linden so at least 2 timelines are created. Something or someone did something similar to what Linden did when she went back to get the Staff so the outcome is roughtly the same. The 'bend' of time is slight. We can bring in multi-verse and 11 demensions, but my head hurts just dealing with 2 timelines.