Time Travel & Linden's choices-Warning:Unblackened Spoil

[IVB]

But we have no corruption of earthpower and no sunbane. So whats to say that the Staff wasn't present somewhere in the world? Nothing says that Kevins dirt is to blame by a missing SOL. It also dosen't prevent Caesures since Linden created one about ten feet from it.
I'm not saying I know what Esmer did with it, i'm just saying that SRD has many ways to go with this. Free will is important to the series, and I for one don't want to have the future mapped out in this series.
If Linden went back, because her future self did, then it is mapped out.

TC might have taken it? He could even be trapped in it. SRD can go any way he wants.
History was changed by Linden so at least 2 timelines are created. Something or someone did something similar to what Linden did when she went back to get the Staff so the outcome is roughtly the same. The 'bend' of time is slight. We can bring in multi-verse and 11 demensions, but my head hurts just dealing with 2 timelines.

No, there is no Sunbane. LF specifically corrupted Earthpower to form the Sunbane with the intent to:

• Mold Linden into his tool
  Pressure TC to surrender his ring
  Because he is a jerk.

Also, no we do not yet know the origins of Kevin’s Dirt so it could be cause the staff was removed from time by Linden or not, we will just have to wait and see. We do know that the caesures are made by wild magic, I don’t remember implying that the missing Staff was to blame for their existence..

Now if “bends” (slight changes in history) are permisable, then why did Esmer not travel to the past and grab the missing Staff? After all, a “bend” won’t break the Arch and violate the Wurd of the Elohim. If the staff still existed in Linden’s present time Esmer could have just given it to her, why risk the Wurd in a time voyage? And don’t say that it was to get the Demondim, he could have brought them forward any time he desired. I will tell you why, its because he could not change the past without violating the Wurd. I don’t think he was lying about it. Esmer is an a**hole, yes, but an honest a**hole. This implies that Linden was always meant to take the staff.

Here is a bend in time for you. I time travel to a moment before your conception in a shrunk down Fantastic Voyage sub and enter your mother’s body through a tear duct and navigate down to where the egg that will become Jerico waits. I see the original sperm cell about the penetrate the eggs outer shell, but using a tractor beam I pull it away letting a different sperm cell fertilize the egg. This is just a bend right? Surely the universe is not altered much if Jerico has blonde hair instead of red? Or perhaps Jerico was born the opposite sex. Perhaps the Jerico that was born had some inborn distaste for Fantasy books and never read the chronicles. This is just a “bend” right, surely changing one tiny cell a few years ago could not have any long reaching impacts. Perhaps the Jerico that was born inherited the latent Anti-Christ gene and caused the destruction of the world… oops that was just a bend, we can buff that right out….

I too think that free will is very important to the series. As I said a long time ago, I think it is related to a healthy Law of Time. But Time is not healthy in Runes, and the loss of free will is a direct result. Apply Occam’s Razor, what is the simplest solution?

[Jerico]

I didn't make the rules SRD did and he says Bends are allowed. Why go on a tangent about it and make up some god awful story naming me?
This board is for discussions, not personal attacks.

I am trying to figure out a way that Linden wasn't pre-destined to get the staff. That leads us to a pre-destined future, which I don't believe fits with the series. Free will is to important to just throw it away. That was the original question, and that is the one I have been trying to figure out.

For every good act that Esmer performs he must balance that act with something evil. If he gave Linden the Staff then what would his recourse be?
No he created enough evil just by bringing the Demondin forward and forcing Linden to bring them forward again.
Apply occam's razor, but keep it 'free will' intact. What's the simplest solution?

[Loredoctor]

Does anyone here think Linden didn't have to go back in time; that she was manipulated into doing so in order to help break the Law of Time?

[IVB]

I didn't make the rules SRD did and he says Bends are allowed.

Just where does Donaldson say bends are allowed? Do you refer to the gradual interview:

Why hasn't everyone who has ever lived in the Land been trapped the way Anele was?

The convenient answer is that Falls are (still) comparatively few and far between. But the real answer involves the fundamental nature of Law. First, the Law of Time resists corrosion, and heals itself as quickly as it can.

What he is saying is that the Falls are short lived, not that people can bend the Law of Time. A bend is a change in the past. Change breaks the Law of Time, Esmer said as much.

Why go on a tangent about it and make up some god awful story naming me?
This board is for discussions, not personal attacks.

I would not not call my example a personal attack, it is simply an illustration that the slightest “bend” has unpredictable and far reaching impacts. With simple change of cells at the moment of conception and all your actions over the years of your life are rendered void. All the people you ever interacted with, everything you touched, the air you breathed, gone. In their place is a new set based upon a different combination of chromosomes. The effect compounds factorialy until the bent time line bears no resemblance to the unbent, and we are talking more than 3000 years changed!

Think about it, you say that the staff was never moved out of time, just out of the Master's reach. If that was the case then a missing Staff does not contribute to Kevin's dirt. Now we create a time line where the Staff is removed for 3000+ years. As a result we have Kevin's Dirt plus any other nasty side effects of a missing staff. Suppose that were the staff resided, it blocked a small puff of a breeze that contributed to the deflection of of the path of a hurricane that otherwise would have slammed into the home of the Giants. Without the Staff in place the hurricane kills thousands of Giants in the history Linden creates by removing the Staff. We can do this all day. So I will summarize. Any “bend” will cause a cascade of changes in history. The more time that passes the greater the change. How much change can the Arch take?

For every good act that Esmer performs he must balance that act with something evil. If he gave Linden the Staff then what would his recourse be?

He could have just handed Linden the staff and said “Here you are, by the way in about 10 minutes a gang of Demondim will show show up. Have a nice day.” Balance is achieved and the Wurd preserved.

Apply occam's razor, but keep it 'free will' intact. What's the simplest solution?

Either the past can change, and the Law of Time, is more like a guidline than a Law. Or Linden was predestined to get the staff which impunes her free will. Those are the simple solutions.

[IVB]

Does anyone here think Linden didn't have to go back in time; that she was manipulated into doing so in order to help break the Law of Time?

Could be, but she did not break the Law of Time, so the past was not changed. so her trip happened before she left. Multii-versre interpretations aside that is... The greatest support for this is Esmer's unwillingness to alter history. A multi-verse allows the past to be altered and a new world line created, Esmer could have lots of potential for good and evil in a set up like that....

[Jerico]

IVB, Yes I was taking that From SRD quote on the GI. Calling it a Bend came from?? I'm not sure, but that's what it amounts to.
Anele was taken from the past by a Fall. The past was changed. Linden took the Staff the past was changed. The Demondin were moved (twice) the past was changed. The ur-viles, and Waynhim both moved, the past was changed.
Your proving my argument with your own statement 'Change breaks the Law of Time'. Who says so? Linden speculates about it and Esmer asks if she is willing to hazard the Arch ( or something along those lines). Any change even 'microscopic' has far reaching impact (as you pointed out).
The past can change, the book proves it because it already has. So it must be flexable.
Look at it like this Esmer brought the Demondin forward from just before the Ritual of Desicration. In the past without Esmer's intervention the Demondin were destroyed by the Ritual. That only works on the Demondin, not Anele, the Staff, Ur-viles, or Waynhim. They were not caught in a Land altering event.
The key could be the Wild Magic? It might be able to change the Law of Time without breaking the Arch. I mean we see when Linden goes through the Caesure that time is being given an acid bath by the Skest(sp) and she notes that it would take hundreds of years to bring down the arch. Because the amount of time they are destroying is so small.
I mean come on they are destroying time and the Arch still stands.
Oh and your quote about Esmer giving the staff to Linden and then saying "oh by the way in about ten minutes a gang of Demondin are going to show up. Have a nice day" That's funny because it amounts to the same thing that happened in the book.

[I'm Murrin]

Anything in the present (or, indeed, future) is not predestined in any way, and there is no implications that this is so. A person's own future is not predestined in any timeline. It is simply a fact that for the Land itself that small period of Linden's life had already occured, since it occured in what was, for her, the past. It could be argued that this means Linden had no choice but to do exactly as she did, but this is simply not true. Her timeline was not predestined in any way, it simply passed backward in time relative to the linear timeline of the Land for a couple of days. Just because something has already happened does not make it predestined. However, at the same time the fact that it happened in the past means it has already occured and will not occur for Linden in any other way.

Anyway, if indeed that small chunk of her life was predestined by it having already occured, this says nothing about free will in any other part of her timeline. Once she returns to the future, nothing has already occured, nothing is set in place before her reaching those moments; her future is as uncertain as anyone's ever is.

[bhoywonder]

Just because something has already happened does not make it predestined. However, at the same time the fact that it happened in the past means it has already occured and will not occur for Linden in any other way.

Something happened in the past because of what happened in the future (to the time that Linden arrived) i.e. Linden going back in time. This WAS predestined to happen, Linden accepts it as so herself. Why do you therefore say the opposite?

The point is that Linden COULD have decided not to go, and what would have happened then?

It seems we're going round in circles here people...

Perhaps we're caught in some sort of disruption to the Space/Time continuum ourselves???

[I'm Murrin]

Gah. I've said all along, there's no need to argue this point. Linden could have chosen otherwise, but never would - evidence of which choice she would make already existed in the fact that she'd appeared in the past and took the Staff into a caesure. The point is not whether she could choose not to go back in time, it's that she didn't choose not to. If she hadn't chosen to go back, we wouldn't be arguing about this because there'd be no event in the past which had come from her decision.
Anyway, that event is in the past now - it is what she chose to do, she did it, and now she's moved on to her next challenge. Can't we move on too?

[IVB]

IVB, Yes I was taking that From SRD quote on the GI. Calling it a Bend came from?? I'm not sure, but that's what it amounts to.
Anele was taken from the past by a Fall. The past was changed. Linden took the Staff the past was changed. The Demondin were moved (twice) the past was changed. The ur-viles, and Waynhim both moved, the past was changed.

But did the past really change? Suppose that it did change:
Worldline A: Anele never investigated a Fall, never lost the Staff of Law and went on to found a line of Lords that put Berek's kids to shame, or something else totally different.
Worldline B: Anele investigates a fall and is transported to the future, the Staff is lost (taken by the waynhim then by Linden) and the Master's take over the Land.

We have two totally different histories. Do you think the Arch can take this sort of abuse?
They only way to preserve the Arch is if Anele's trip was always a part of history.

The same applies to the Demondin, if they had already traveled to the future twice before Linden ever made her trip, then the past is not changed.

Your proving my argument with your own statement 'Change breaks the Law of Time'. Who says so? Linden speculates about it and Esmer asks if she is willing to hazard the Arch ( or something along those lines). Any change even 'microscopic' has far reaching impact (as you pointed out).
The past can change, the book proves it because it already has. So it must be flexable.

If the past is flexible why is Esmer so worried about making changes?
Esmer said that change breaks the Arch. Otherwise he would have gone for the staff himself. Look on page 336 in Runes: “If the past is altered, the Arch of Time is threatened. Once rent it can never be made whole.”

The key could be the Wild Magic? It might be able to change the Law of Time without breaking the Arch. I mean we see when Linden goes through the Caesure that time is being given an acid bath by the Skest(sp) and she notes that it would take hundreds of years to bring down the arch. Because the amount of time they are destroying is so small.
I mean come on they are destroying time and the Arch still stands.

The skest appear to be caring for Joan while turiya Herem tourtures her into creating the Falls. It is the Falls that give time the acid bath, not the skest. Falls are flaws in continuity, but their effects in the past must be a part of history else history is changed. Yet their existence corrodes the Law faster than Law can “heal” its self and close the Falls.

The key probably is, as you say, Wild Magic and because this is so complicated I think SRD will take the easy road and ignore all the implications of free will or perhaps permit small “bends” as you say in history for the sake of the story. Probably along the lines of Wild Magic can “bend” history because it is the foundation of the Arch of Time. Weak.

Oh and your quote about Esmer giving the staff to Linden and then saying "oh by the way in about ten minutes a gang of Demondin are going to show up. Have a nice day" That's funny because it amounts to the same thing that happened in the book.

Yes, so you agree that the same results are achieved with out the back to the future time travel scenario.

[Rick Stuckwisch]

Frankly, I think that Linden's logic was faulty and her conclusion (or hope) was simply mistaken. The fact that the Staff of Law wasn't where Anele left it a few thousand years previous surely did not prove anything in particular about who (or what) took it, far less that Linden must have gone back in time to retrieve it. I know that SRD is an "efficient writer," but characters have to be able to be wrong from time to time, and I think this is a case in point. We already know, now, why the Staff wasn't in Anele's cave: the Waynhim took it and were keeping it out of harm's way (or use).

Personally, I don't think that Esmer has any evil alterior motive to his actions, either, as some seem to be assuming. I think he is what he appears to be: entirely unbalanced by his need to give equal blessings and curses.

What havoc may result from Linden's going back in time remains to be seen. Free will, as defined by SRD in the Chronicles, doesn't mean that you get to choose what happens to you, but that you are free to determine how you respond to what happens to you. This goes to the same way in which both the Creator and Lord Foul take their chances when they choose someone to enter the Land; each is hoping for certain choices and actions, but they can't predict, necessarily, how any of that will go (and even when it does goes the way they might anticipate, it might result in something else altogether; as when TC gave his white gold ring to LF in WGW). So, Linden made her choice to go back in time and retrieve the Staff -- whether it was wise, or "the right choice," or stupid, or whatever -- now she and the Land get to live with the consequences, and will have to make choices and decisions in response to those consequences.

It does seem to me that the movement of the Staff of Law from the distant past to the present, and its presumed absence from the intervening years, will contribute to the "bending" of the Law of Time. And it perhaps it was that move, retrospectively, that has enabled the caesures to do what they do; and/or enabled TC to come back from the dead (or from the past), if he has.

[Loredoctor]

Frankly, I think that Linden's logic was faulty and her conclusion (or hope) was simply mistaken. The fact that the Staff of Law wasn't where Anele left it a few thousand years previous surely did not prove anything in particular about who (or what) took it, far less that Linden must have gone back in time to retrieve it. I know that SRD is an "efficient writer," but characters have to be able to be wrong from time to time, and I think this is a case in point. We already know, now, why the Staff wasn't in Anele's cave: the Waynhim took it and were keeping it out of harm's way (or use).

Yeah, that's what I think. However, Linden may never have had a chance to actually go there during the present, as Esmer summoned a Caesure to send her into the past.

[drew]

I think that Linden's time travel, will have the same effect as the Rape...almost everything in the First Chrons was because of the rape; I have a feeling that Linden's time travel, is going to have some serious reprocutions. How many times did she tell herself, "Good can't come trough evil means..."?

[Rick Stuckwisch]

[quote]I think that Linden's time travel, will have the same effect as the Rape...almost everything in the First Chrons was because of the rape; I have a feeling that Linden's time travel, is going to have some serious reprocutions. How many times did she tell herself, "Good can't come trough evil means..."?[/quote]

I'm in the middle of reading Reave the Just and Other Tales, and just finished the short story "Penance." In that light, your comment about "Good can't come through evil means" really struck me; because that is a contention in the "Penance" story. Interestingly, it is there called into question, though I wouldn't say that it is necessarily resolved (it's more left in doubt as to what is really "evil," and what is "good").

At any rate, I think you're are putting your finger on one of SRD's key philosophical queries and considerations. And, in particular, I think it has always been a factor where Linden is concerned; just think of all the times she rationalized (and/or recoiled from) her possession of someone for the sake of healing. . . . That same dilemma is now being writ large upon the whole Land and the very Arch of Time. She's playing with fire, I think.

[Jerico]

IVB- You left out some of the 'meat' of Esmers explanation to Linden. He protested "But do you comprehend that we speak of Law? Of sequence and causality which must not be broken? If the past is altered, the Arch of Time itself is threatened. Once rent, it can never be made whole"

SRD gets into the topic of the 'new' SOL in the GI. I think this staff is not like the original. I dosen't uphold the Law in the same way. It hasn't been used or used enough, or by the right person. One with enough knowledge to know what this new staff is able to really do?

Maybe this is what happened. The sequence and causality is the key. Each thing that is brought forward (Anele, Waynhim, Ur-viles, Demondin, and Staff) was lost or died in timeline A. Anele stepped out of his cave one day and broke his neck by falling, the Waynhim found, and protected the Staff in there cave for over 3 thousand years. Foul destroyed the Ur-viles, and the Demondin were wiped out by the Ritual.
Remember this new staff isn't the old one. It doesen't work the same way (yet) it hasn't been used long enough. So it slowly kills the Waynhim, and makes the flowers grow pretty for a few hundred feet around the cave. But Stave never 'felt' the Staff when they went back. Linden couldn't for a long time. I don't think it generates enough 'Law' yet. So no one found it.
Then timeline B is the story we read. The Caesures etc. The sequence and causality remains whole.

Yes, I do agree that the whole Time travel thing could have been avoided. I mean Esmer made it possible for Linden to go back. He gave her instructions and explanations on everything she needed. He could have just told her where the staff was and the carried out his 'balance' by dumping the Demondin in her lap. The only thing left out of that is the Waynhim? I wonder if this whole thing was set up to preserve them for some reason??

[IVB]

IVB- You left out some of the 'meat' of Esmers explanation to Linden. He protested "But do you comprehend that we speak of Law? Of sequence and causality which must not be broken? If the past is altered, the Arch of Time itself is threatened. Once rent, it can never be made whole"

Maybe this is what happened. The sequence and causality is the key. Each thing that is brought forward (Anele, Waynhim, Ur-viles, Demondin, and Staff) was lost or died in timeline A. Anele stepped out of his cave one day and broke his neck by falling, the Waynhim found, and protected the Staff in there cave for over 3 thousand years. Foul destroyed the Ur-viles, and the Demondin were wiped out by the Ritual.
Remember this new staff isn't the old one. It doesen't work the same way (yet) it hasn't been used long enough. So it slowly kills the Waynhim, and makes the flowers grow pretty for a few hundred feet around the cave. But Stave never 'felt' the Staff when they went back. Linden couldn't for a long time. I don't think it generates enough 'Law' yet. So no one found it.
Then timeline B is the story we read. The Caesures etc. The sequence and causality remains whole.

The flaw with this reasoning is that you are picking and choosing which lines of causality you want to preserve. Say Anele did break is neck. Yes he and the staff do nothing for 3000+ years. But Aneal's body decays, generations of bacteria and bugs are affected. What about their causality? What about the flowers you mentioned? The waynhim do not live is a vacuum either. Causality is not a line, it is a web.

So again, either the past can change a little (the path I think SRD will take) or Linden's actions were predetermined.

SRD gets into the topic of the 'new' SOL in the GI. I think this staff is not like the original. I dosen't uphold the Law in the same way. It hasn't been used or used enough, or by the right person. One with enough knowledge to know what this new staff is able to really do?

IRC, that line in the GI was about using the SoL to repair the Laws of Life and Death.

The Staff of Law was created as a means to wield the energy of Earthpower safely--i.e. without violating the various constraints of Law. But because this is magic rather than technology (because it deals in symbolic unities rather than in discrete mechanisms), the Staff cannot be inherently separate from the forces and rules which it exerts. It's not a light switch, essentially distinct from the flow of electricity which it enables. In a certain sense, the Staff *is* both Law and Earthpower, just as white gold *is* wild magic. In fantasy, in magic, the tool cannot be distinguished from what the tool does.

So. Even though the Staff was never essential to the original existence of either Law or Earthpower, the simple fact of its creation means that it participates in both, and can therefore: a) strengthen both, or b) weaken both (by being destroyed). So yes, the destruction of the original Staff weakened the structure of Law.

But. This is does *not* imply that Linden's creation of a new Staff *automatically* restores the structure of Law to its original form. A tool has to be used to be effective; and the person using the tool has to know what he/she is doing. Linden, and then Sunder and Hollian, clearly have the spirit and the heart to use the Staff effectively; but they don't necessarily have the lore, the knowledge, to accomplish everything that the Staff is capable of doing. (The absence of runes on the new Staff is not an accident.) Also the new Staff is profoundly different than Berek's original creation. It was formed, not from the wood of the One Tree, but from one sentient (Findail) and one quasi-sentient (Vain) being, each of whose nature affects the inherent qualities of both the new Staff and what the new Staff can do. (And then there's the interesting question of whether Sunder and Hollian would actually *want* to heal the broken Law of Life, since by doing so they might undo themselves.) And in addition: when the new Staff was created, it became an inherent participant in both Law and Earthpower, just as Berek's did; BUT the *condition* of Law and Earthpower when Linden created her Staff was different than it was when Berek created his; and therefore the *condition* of the new Staff is also different.

So. The creation of the new Staff did not *in itself* restore the broken Laws of Death and Life. Presumably it *could*. If the right wielder used it in the right way. But that hasn't happened yet.

So, even the new staff partakes of Law even if it is never used.

Yes, I do agree that the whole Time travel thing could have been avoided. I mean Esmer made it possible for Linden to go back. He gave her instructions and explanations on everything she needed. He could have just told her where the staff was and the carried out his 'balance' by dumping the Demondin in her lap. The only thing left out of that is the Waynhim? I wonder if this whole thing was set up to preserve them for some reason??

Good theory, It could be. A balance to the Ur-Viles perhaps?

I think Drew's comment is on the money as well. This time loop we have been debating can not have any positive affect on the Law time. As I said, SRD will probably ignore the hard implications of time travel that make you head hurt and focus on the story..

[Jerico]

Yes the Waynhim could be to balance the Ur-viles, but the Urviles seem to be commited to Linden. The Waynhim just sort of came along for the ride. Esmer says little of them after they give the Staff to Linden. They are both the last of their kind as are the Demondin. If the Viles get brought back the cycle will be complete. Maybe it has something to do with restoring the One Forest in the new Land, or maybe they will all band together to become something more than each of their seperate being. Perhaps they will even help in the fight against Foul?

The waynhim did kind of live in a vacuum. They would have went on protecting the staff until the last one of them died from it. It was their Wurd. At least that's the way I took it from the book.

I hope there is not much more time travel also. Not having it explained in the book is opening a can of worms.

It will also be interesting to see what powers the new staff has!

[IVB]

Maybe it has something to do with restoring the One Forest in the new Land, or maybe they will all band together to become something more than each of their seperate being. Perhaps they will even help in the fight against Foul?

We will have to see, but I don't imagine that SRD will bring back the One Forest.

The waynhim did kind of live in a vacuum. They would have went on protecting the staff until the last one of them died from it. It was their Wurd. At least that's the way I took it from the book.

So what about their "sequence and causality" as they breath, eat, practice Lore and eventualy die from proximity to the Staff? If the law is to have any meaning it has to be applied to consistently.

[Jerico]

That's like asking what was the Forestals duty? They knew that they had to protecct it from Fouls servants. That's why they took it from Aneles cave. It's what they decided to do with their collective being.
Or maybe im not seeing the question?

[IVB]

That's like asking what was the Forestals duty? They knew that they had to protecct it from Fouls servants. That's why they took it from Aneles cave. It's what they decided to do with their collective being.
Or maybe im not seeing the question?

But do you comprehend that we speak of Law? Of sequence and causality which must not be broken? If the past is altered, the Arch of Time itself is threatened. Once rent, it can never be made whole

I am saying that if Anele broke his neck and the waynhim took the staff and all died off, the sequence and causality for each of the waynhim, everything they touch every bacterial that fed off thier decaying bodies, the molecules of hair they breathed is rent.