The Ending... Was that really...

[Jerico]

It's weird but I read an interview last week on Locus with SRD and he said that he was going to get into what makes the Despiser what he is. Kind of like we know why TC acts the way he does, and we know why LA acts the way she does. I mean we are given everyones details about what and how they act and why, except Lord Foul. SRD says that he will explore this in these last books. That should be quite interesting going one on one with Foul to find out why or what made him what he is...
I for one can hardly wait for that...

[aliantha]

Perhaps someone could enlighten me re: the definition of despite, which although I always equate with evil, SRD seems to mean something more to it?

SRD seems to use "despite" more or less interchangeably with "despair."

Dictionary.com says:

despite

\De*spite"\, n. [OF. despit, F. d['e]pit, fr. L. despectus contempt, fr. despicere. See Despise, and cf. Spite, Despect.] 1. Malice; malignity; spite; malicious anger; contemptuous hate.

With all thy despite against the land of Israel. --Ezek. xxv. 6.

2. An act of malice, hatred, or defiance; contemptuous defiance; a deed of contempt.

A despite done against the Most High. --Milton.

In despite, in defiance of another's power or inclination.

In despite of, in defiance of; in spite of. See under Spite. ``Seized my hand in despite of my efforts to the contrary.'' --W. Irving.

In your despite, in defiance or contempt of you; in spite of you. [Obs.]


Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

So...not despair, but not evil, either. Interesting!

[wayfriend]

Hey, hey, I'm back. I couldn't stand all the spoilers I could not avoid so I simply had to stay away for a long time. Now I'm catching up.

Some things that seem to have been overlooked by this thread as I am reading it.

[1]
Lord Foul, very early on, made a very serious and explicit comment about exactly what would happen when Linden finally was able to reach Jeremiah. I don't have Runes here at work; maybe someone can quote it? We know that these things Foul says come true. So either Jeremiah is a servant of Foul, or he is suffering. Unfortunately, he didn't seem to be suffering when he appeared at the end.

[2]
I have a very good theory about TC. I think that the caesures are harming Covenant as it harms the Land. If the caesures are able to sever time, then they are also able to sever Covenant by extension. So Covenant has become fragmented. One aspect is able to speak, more or less honestly, through Anele. Another reaches her in dreams. Another has become the Mahdoubt. Another manifests his physical form - and it is riding up to Revelstone. But this latter one is being controlled or tainted by Foul, and it cannot be trusted. And it cannot be freed from Foul until all the parts of Covenant are re-united, which cannot be until the caesures are eliminated. Hence, find me means "find all of me" - find all of TC's bits and glue them back together; a job of healing which it fits that Linden would be present for.

Hey?

[3]
Lastly, I almost had a heart attack reading this thread that no one would notice that SRD did not say that bit about the Final Chronicles, it was WA Senior. Thank god. But on that topic:

Spoiler

Remember, when SRD says Covenent is Foul, that's always an outside explanation, describing what he is writing about. It is never an in story explanation; we'll never read words to that effect in the book. I think it's more likely that we will see Foul become Covenant-like - able to turn the corner that TC turned in the first Chronicles, and begin to care. Foul will be healed. The Earth will finally be saved because Foul does not want to destroy it.

Phew! I wrote fast and sloppy to avoid being timed out, plus I'm at work. Sorry.

[Jerico]

Foul really just blowing smoke?

'I See that you are the Chosen, called Linden Avery. At one time, you were named 'Sun Sage' for your power against the Sunbane. I have your son"
then--
"That ismays you, does it not? You have cause. He lies beyond you. At my whim, I am able to command or destroy him"
then--
"Which shall I perform? Would it harm you more to observe him in my service, or to witness his death in torment??
then--
"Wretched woman! I do not teveal my aims to such as you"
then--
"This I vow. In time you will behold the fruit of my endeavors. If your son serves me, he will do so in your presence. If I slaughter him, I will do so before you. Think on that when you seek to retrieve him from me. If you discover him, you will only hasten his doom. While you are apart from him, you cannot know his sufferings. You may be certain only that he lives"

Now that's really a bunch of nothing. Remember that Foul can hear what Linden says and she tells Anele that Foul has her son. I'm not sure that Foul ever had him. When Linden is being translated to the Land and Foul says tell her I have her son, who is he talking to? Linden thinks its the Raver in Joan. The son being Roger. Also when Linden tells TC in the dream about Jerimiah, he says 'not to worry about it' . Why would TC say this? Unless he knew that Jerimiah was safe.

Your theory about TC being Broken up into pieces is cool, but TC isn't the Arch only the protector of the Arch. If the Ceasures are damaging Time, then it would stand to reason that would include the Arch but not TC. The Find me could have something to do with the Staff of Law. Which is the only thing that Linden actually found or went looking for. TC could have latched onto it because it was made by Linden, or for some other unknown purpose.

Who is WA Senior? Did he write a book about TCOTC or something? If people are quoteing this guy

[Insanity Falls]

Creator: Thank you!

Jerico: For W.A. Senior goto stephendonaldon.com, then go to "commentary" then "analyses".

PS. If anyone knows whether that quote is actually *present* in the exerpts that SRD presents, and where it is, I would be grateful to be told!

[aliantha]

It wasn't just Foul. The Ranyhyn told Linden what was going on with Jeremiah, too:

The Ranyhyn had erred with Elena, perhaps, by not revealing the true extent of her peril. She had been a child, too young to apprehend the truth of their prophecies. They had feared to overwhelm her.

On behalf of all their kind, Hyn and Hynyn did not make that mistake with Linden.

Instead they found within her a still graver hurt. Galloping in frenzy, they touched the ravaged memories of moksha Raver's possession, the killing horror of Jehannum's malice. And with that knowledge, they caused her to experience what was being done to her son.

To damaged Jeremiah, who had no defense except blankness....

Belaboring the floor of the dell with her pain, she saw Jeremiah's plight as Hyn and Hynyn wished her to see it: as if she were simultaneously herself occupied by a Raver and Thomas Covenant lost in the stasis imposed by the Elohim.

Which, BTW, makes me wonder about the state of mind Jeremiah will be in when Linden actually meets him at Revelstone in the next book. It sounds to me, given what Foul said (quoted so ably by Jerico), that a Raver may be possessing Jeremiah -- that it's the Raver who's yelling and cheering on the horses approaching Revelstone, while Jeremiah himself is still locked away inside (already damaged enough to withdraw profoundly, and now having to endure a Raver inside him, as well). Ugh. Poor kid.

The only good thing about this is that now we can account for both Ravers....

[Guest]

What if it isn't Thomas at all, but Berek? He could have been brought forward just like the Demondim. She said the other rider could have been Jeremiah, maybe he was another Old Lord. If the Demondim could ride a ceasure, then maybe the Old Lords could too. If it is Berek, Linden would have a hard time working with someone with the same face as Covenant and the same inner strength. She would have to remember that TC was dead and that this wasn't TC.

[I'm Murrin]

"Unmistakeably Thomas Covenant" doesn't sound like a complete stranger to me, Urbanite. Berek does not look like Covenant, and we've never been given reason to believe so (the resemblance is only in the halfhand, the only feature of Berek's appearence that anyone who compared him to TC knew about).

[Jerico]

Aliantha wrote:

It wasn't just Foul. The Ranyhyn told Linden what was going on with Jeremiah, too:

The Ranyhyn just read what was in Lindens mind about Jerimiah, and that includes her belief that Foul holds him.
(Instead they found within her a still graver hurt) this line is the key. Early on when she hears TC talking to her in a dream she tells him 'Foul has my son' and he tells her not to worry about it. Why?
That's what I ment about Foul just blowing smoke. I don't know that he ever had Jerimiah. I think TC intercepted him on the way and that is what FR will be about. Kind of like the second part of TIW.

[aliantha]

The Ranyhyn just read what was in Lindens mind about Jerimiah, and that includes her belief that Foul holds him.
(Instead they found within her a still graver hurt) this line is the key.

Hmm, I interpreted that line a different way. I think the Ranyhyn knew that Linden was worried about what Foul was doing to her son -- the "still graver hurt" -- and then used Earthpower to find out what Jeremiah was actually suffering (and her own experiences to explain it to her). "[T]hey caused her to experience what was being done to her son" is pretty explicit. The Ranyhyn are sure trying to scare Linden, but they aren't making it up; they're using Linden's memories to give her a visceral understanding of what Jeremiah's going through. I think. YMMV.

Early on when she hears TC talking to her in a dream she tells him 'Foul has my son' and he tells her not to worry about it. Why?

Hm, I missed that. I'll have to go back and look for it.

Murrin: I agree that the TC at the end of the book is really TC -- in some form -- if for no other reason than fans of the series may stage an open rebellion if SRD tries to publish another Covenant book without TC in it!

[Jerico]

Aliantha wrote:

then used Earthpower to find out what Jeremiah was actually suffering (and her own experiences to explain it to her).

How did they use Earthpower to find that out exactly? They have never done it before. They caused her to experience what she 'thought' was being done to her son.
I had to read that part several times to try to understand it. The Ranyhyn just used what was in her mind. They have never shown any 'powers' to do anything like what you are saying, sure they know when someone is going to call them, but that is something to do with them not Jerimiah. I guess it could be taken either way, but we have no proof that Foul has Jerimiah.

[dlbpharmd]

I finished my second read of Runes last night, and noticed something in the last line that I didn't notice before. The word stranger is italicized.

So, I need everyone's help here. Sometime back, someone (maybe Durris?) explained the significance of italicized words in SRDs writings. However, I don't remember what that was, and I can't find the thread. Does anyone else remember?

[TincupCPG]

While there might be some significance to previous italicized words in th past, i don't think that applies here. The word in question was an internal response from Avery as the Master has described recuing 2 strangers from the Demondim. Avery thought the Master had recognized the 2...hence the word strangers. Basically was making a statement that they were not strangers at all, but known to both the Masters and to herself.

However, that begs another question? I can understand the Haruchai
recognizing Covenant (more or less) but does that also mean they recognized her son, jeremiah, as well? Or does their recognition just mean that the Masters recognized Covenant? If it does mean both were recognized by the masters...we need to ask ourselves how in the hell they recognized jeremiah??

[wayfriend]

I feel that the Haruchai's use of the word "stranger" indicates that they do not believe it is Covenant. Linden's use of the word means that she doesn't yet understand the significance of this yet.

[TincupCPG]

When Handir spoke to Avery about the the Masters rescuing 2 strangers from the path of the Vile-Spawn....He paused and consulted with the Haruchai first right before he said, "two strangers". Linden then felt a little later on that she had felt a change in his demeanor; He had recognized the newcomers...

If you go back and read the last page or so you will find that she is using the italicised word "strangers" as a sort of self comment on the truthfullness of the Masters. For instance:

"The Masters had not rescued strangers. She knew both of them intimately. (One was her son, of course.) "The other stranger was unmistakably Thomas Covenant.

So I thnk it is simply a matter of semantics here in the use of the italicised word. The Haruchai simply said strangers...even though she felt that the Maters recognized them both. Then she used the word strangers as a point that they were not strangers at all. If the pause while Handir consulted witht he other masters means anything at all, it mght simply mean he was looking for the right word...OR that he was trying to avoid saying who the people rescued might be.

Actually there is an interesting point here also. When Handir silently consulted with the other masters, they might have told him at that point that Thomas Covenant was one of the strangers. The Haruchai cetainly would have recognized the half-hand as well as "Covenant" himself might have told the Masters who he was at some point either before or during the rescue. WHich still leaves the question of whether or not the Haruchai recognized jeremiah as well. Linden seems to think so...but at this point we can't be sure what she is correct about. We have to wait quite a while (sobs) before we find out a few more details about what has just happened.

[Reisheiruhime]

Cuz it's the thread that never ends, it just goes on and on my friend...

Why couldn't it be Roger there? Eh? *answers self* Why would the idiots rescue Roger? *self answers self* Don't answer my questions with questions.

Bob the ur-vile: Woof.

[dlbpharmd]

bump for kvickie

[Sunbaneglasses]

Esmer asked Linden which path she would choose,to bear the staff of law and the white gold,or give one up.He said her decision would choose his path also.As I have posted befor I do not believe that Esmer in his wildest dreams would think that Linden would give him the ring.Who knows where Esmer's chain of aid and betrail will end.He indicated that the bearing of the White Gold and The Staff would tear Linden apart-therefor as an act of aid did he resurect the only person that Linden would give the ring to?Who knows what Esmer is capable of?

[finn]

The Haruchai would be very interested in the strangers due to their Half-hands which would mirror the three half-handed Haruchai. A pair of Half-hands would surely pique their interest and they'd try to bring them back to Revelstone to consult with the voice. They'd probably discern their difference and power, latent or atherwise.

[Steve Hurtloam]

I hate that I take a break from this site, and think of a great idea for a thread.. "find me" vs. "lack of active finding" of dead Covenant... and there's already an 11 page thread all about it!

HAHA!