Thoughts and questions on Gap as I read it the first time

[Dragonlily]

Think what lengths Sixten would go to to stay alive, if he felt he had the chance of doing humanity such good.

[Alynna Lis Eachann]

The thing about humans that the Amnion find most repugnant is falsehood. It's possible that the new GAP series could find a resolution after the Amnion have spent some time dealing with honorable human beings, instead of pirates and the outlaws of Billingate. They could realize that most humans are different, and become a shaky partner against human pirates.

I see a deciding moment when humanity's leaders, one or more of them, sacrifice their lives in order to keep their promises -- and the Amnion see they mean what they say.

I am, be warned, a cynic. That said, the problem I see with what you suggest is that all the humans we encounter in the Gap, from Holt to to the pirates to the "votes" and the techs Warden finds in the control room, are not different. I think the UMCP members, Punisher's crew for example, are an abbaration. Like Morn's family they joined the UMCP because they needed an organization that espoused the values they held dear; they were encouraged by people like Min and Warden. But I do not see the rest of humanity, as Donaldson paints it, as honest enough to sway the Amnion.

As to the issue of villians, is it me or does Donaldson make them a little two-dimensional? Foul has yet to give a comprehensive reason for wanting the Land destroyed. I mean, yes, he wants to be free, he wants power... but what do you do with a dead planet? And the Amnion want to destroy humanity, not, I feel, because of humanity's flaws, but because humanity is. And that is not enough for me. Thoughts, anyone?[/quote]

[Alynna Lis Eachann]

As for Sixten, I think he would play his cards so that people like Morn and Davies were forced to take responsibility for saving humanity (yeah, again). I do not see him as a man who would be able to take the steps Holt did to preserve himself. He seems, to me, too tired... no medicine exists to make the heart young. He does state at some point that he has no wish to keep himself alive, and I am not sure a chance for peace with the Amnion would convince him otherwise.

[UrLord]

As to the issue of villians, is it me or does Donaldson make them a little two-dimensional? Foul has yet to give a comprehensive reason for wanting the Land destroyed. I mean, yes, he wants to be free, he wants power... but what do you do with a dead planet? And the Amnion want to destroy humanity, not, I feel, because of humanity's flaws, but because humanity is. And that is not enough for me. Thoughts, anyone?

Lord Foul doesn't want to "rule the planet," so it doesn't matter if it's dead or doesn't exist. It's simply a prison he wants to escape. He wants to destroy the earth (with the Land on it) simply because it's keeping him small and locked away...why isn't that enough of a reason?

As for the Amnion...they're reminiscent of humanity's own imperialistic tendencies. Just look throughout history. Nations say "down with those guys, they don't worship the same god as we do, they don't act like we do. We must make them like us." Which is exactly what the Amnion want to do with humanity. They want them to either become Amnion or die due to their genetic imperialistic nature. They're really not all that different from humanity in that regard...and humanity never in the past needed a better reason than "they're different from us" to invade and kill and/or convert other groups.

[Alynna Lis Eachann]

As for the Amnion...they're reminiscent of humanity's own imperialistic tendencies.

And that, I suppose, is where my cynicism comes from. I guess genocide for the sake of genocide is beyond my grasp. Still, I do expect a more elaborate evil from Donaldson... I suppose the reason is that the protagonists are so complex. Seems like they need equally challenging foils - but that would be, what, Amnion handing out lolipops? *shrug* I suppose if the bad guys are conflicted, they suddenly aren't the bad guys any more.

I suppose I did miss the bigger picture with Foul. Kinda makes you wonder what else is in that universe, though. I still maintain that freedom and power are useless if there's nothing to do, planet aside. I suppose he could begin to really mess with other realities if he were free...

[The Dreaming]

Well, there is a reason I haven’t posted in while. My computer went boom. It won’t be fixed for at least another two weeks, but because of its absence, I had time to pick up runes, and the Gap again. And I... well... finished it all in about 3 days. So the point of this thread kind of went out the window.

You can guess by my speed what I thought of the series, I am still shell shocked (having finished it about 2 hours ago). I would never have thought the plotline began in The Real Story would reach such a huge, epic height. All I had to warn me was that essay at the end of The Real Story. The scope of what I just read is still past my comprehension really. It had to have been one of the best-designed and constructed stories I have ever read. The plot moved at just the right pace, the climaxes came at just the right time; I was unable to stop myself.

I am also extremely surprised at the depth of the Science half of it all. Donaldson made a completely seamless transition to science fiction as if he had been writing it his whole life. The Science was easily on par with the Dean (Heinlenn) and even Niven or Asimov. In addition to a story on a scale higher than I thought the genre could obtain.

I will probably grasp more in a few days, but yes, my opinion of Angus certainly changed. Hell, by the end of Forbidden Knowledge I was rooting for him to get Nick and kill him in a very painful manner. (Thankfully his end was even more satisfying!). Donaldson managed to make him likeable without taking away his edge, which was frankly amazing.

[Alynna Lis Eachann]

I agree, the science aspect of it was incredibly in-depth (and believeable). LOL, what I actually found the most lacking was the politics - not the institutional politics between UMC and UMCP, but Holt Fasner's rise to power. I found it hard to believe that there was, on the entire planet, nobody who was able to undermine him; I guess this comes from the whole concept of anti-trust laws, and how the American government, at least, would not let a private company gain that much power over it. Have to say, too, that the votes' reasoning seemed a little simplistic at times, as well.

Overall, however, I felt that the Gap series was (dare I say it?) more complex and involved than TC.

I don't know if I personally would have called Nick's end satisfying, but it was the height of poetic justice and irony, and so well set up that I actually doubted it would happened - I believed Nick would get the kind of revenge he wanted against Sorus, but he didn't. He just died.

[Believer]

SRD has noted that after the first couple books he was slammed by people because his accelerations and decelerations were too extreme for people to survive. I'm not the kind of person who would make the calculations -- either on paper or in my head -- to have figured that out, though if I were I probably would have noticed. But otherwise the science was at least plausible to me, though I don't tend to look too closely at that kind of thing.

I really enjoyed the character interactions anyway... Angus's change is rather amazing... Have to agree with the previous comments there. And Sixten Vertigus is very cool. As is Hashi Lebwohl. I'm trying to imagine Colin Baker playing him, and I have to admit I have a hard time seeing it. But eh... Maybe I'll see it later.

[Tom]

I agree, the science aspect of it was incredibly in-depth (and believeable). LOL, what I actually found the most lacking was the politics - not the institutional politics between UMC and UMCP, but Holt Fasner's rise to power.

I found the science and the politics very believable, and with respect to other posts, I felt complete awe with the transformation that took place with Angus Thermopyle. I agree with others, I really identify with The Gap series much more than Thomas Covenant, although I love both. To me, The Gap shows "what could be", whereas Thomas Covenant is a fantasy for fun.

If you have trouble believing Holt Fasner's rise to power, just take a look at the abuse of "executive order" powers happening the past 4 years in the United States.

I even appreciated the acceleration/deceleration the characters go through to solve the problem of inertia. I can't believe people would complain to SRD that it wouldn't be possible! It's not like the ships in the books stop on a dime and do a 180! Much more believable than the "inertial dampers" from Star Trek.

Tom

[Loredoctor]

Good points, Tom.

There were a few scientic flaws in the Gap (i.e. singularities being created by the gravitational interactions of planets; the way mutagens worked), but largely the Gap was spot on. It's amazing that the Gap gets criticised, yet somehow Star Trek with huge amounts of scientific flaws is seen as the bastion of sci-fi.

[variol son]

Because in truth Star Trek is light and fluffy and deals with heroism, peace and goodwill. There are goodies and baddies and everything is clear and simple.

The Gap is about flawed human beings, none of whom are particualrly heroic most of the time. There are no goodies or baddies, just people driven by various needs, and nothing is clear or simple.

It's like Dr Suess versus Shakespeare.

Sum sui generis
Vs

[Loredoctor]

Well said.

[Tom]

Good points, Tom.

There were a few scientic flaws in the Gap (i.e. singularities being created by the gravitational interactions of planets; the way mutagens worked), but largely the Gap was spot on. It's amazing that the Gap gets criticised, yet somehow Star Trek with huge amounts of scientific flaws is seen as the bastion of sci-fi.

Well, I'm a trekker along with the best of them, but I really see Star Trek as more political commentary and "feel good sci fi" rather than true sci fi. Star Trek is not true science fiction in my opinion, and it has earned its popularity by feeding on the yearnings of humanity to have happy endings and not make us feel icky along the way to get there. More of a space-based soap opera, really. Heck, Star Wars is even advertised as a space opera.

The Gap series punches you right between the eyes with cruelty, political struggles, wild-but-possible technology, vast distances and the problems overcoming them, and the added romance of pirates and saving humanity. No holding back by SRD, The Gap is not for those that like to stay away from the icky stuff.

Tom

[variol son]

Not that Star Trek doesn't try. It likes to think of itself as daring, but in truth it hasn't been so since the original series. Most of the franchises recent attempts at depth have come off looking a little shallow.

[Loredoctor]

Oh absolutely, it is political commentary - but sometimes it comes off as preachy and a bit forced. Its alien races are very lacking, in my opinion. No offense to your tastes, Tom - just stating my views

[Dragonlily]

Carrying over from another thread. I just realized that if Liam Neeson absolutely were not available for Warden Dios, I could find contentment with Roy DuPuis of La Femme Nikita in the role.

[Alynna Lis Eachann]

Ooh, that's brilliant! He would be ideal.

[kevinswatch]

Oh yeah...Roy DuPuis would make an awesome Warden Dios.

Maybe Madeline as Min Donner?

And Walter as Victor?

We already talked about Nikita as Morn.

Operations could pull off Holt Fasner maybe...

Hell, let's just get the whole La Femme Nikita cast in for the Gap movie...heh.-jay

[Dragonlily]

Holt Fasner is reserved for Stephen McHattie (Best Actor winner for Life With Billy, also in Deadly Love and a ton of others).

Walter as Vector?? Vector is soft and rounded and surprises everyone when he takes a stand on something. Philip Seymour Hoffman could do a great Vector. Walter is more like ... let's see ... some officer on Punisher ... the one who was run off his feet fighting the fire, what's his name? Hargin Stoval, that's it.