Are Angus and Thomas Covenant alike?
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Are Angus and Thomas Covenant alike?
I'm not completly sure if this is the right place to post this, but there isn't a forum for both TC and th gap so i'm doing it here... I've just finished reading the gap series, and towards the end i got the feeling that angus and covenant where very similar in what drives them. i'm probably miles off, i know that covenant would never have done any of the things that angus did, but towards the end of the gap series, after dios released angus, i thought the two of them were very similar. i've noticed SRD has a common theme of his main characters being driven by guilt, but i really noticed a similarity between them, both of them being driven by the guilt of the rapes they've commited. and also, whilst we're on the subject of rape, am i the only person who thinks its worryin that all of SRD's work that i've read (only TC and th gap series so far) both has rape as an important part of the story... just another observation, i'm good at observing. I realise i've given no evidence for what i've said here, pretty much wild accusations, but as we've all seen the evidence can come from another source (a reference to the GCES voting throughout most of the last book in the gap series, lol i cant remember the name and i've just read it) but i'm hoping other people will back me up, or more likely everyone will disagree with me and i'll have to find the evidence to back it up, still i'm no lane harbinger...
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Loredoctor
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The topic will stay here; it's fine to compare both books in the Gap.
As for the claim that Angus and TC are similar, well that's an interesting point. I don't think the rape issue is what's important. Probably what is important is that both characters attempt to redeem themselves - they both feel some form of guilt. So yes, I agree with you. However, the similarity may be only that.
As for the claim that Angus and TC are similar, well that's an interesting point. I don't think the rape issue is what's important. Probably what is important is that both characters attempt to redeem themselves - they both feel some form of guilt. So yes, I agree with you. However, the similarity may be only that.
Waddley wrote:your Highness Sir Dr. Loredoctor, PhD, Esq, the Magnificent, First of his name, Second Cousin of Dragons, White-Gold-Plate Wielder!
i didnt mean to make the rape issue seem too important, and yes i was pretty much saying that they are similar in that they are trying to redeem themselves, this is what motivates them and is responsible for most of their actions. i just noticed this connection and thought i'd comment on it, see what other people think
Well rape is an important issue, But it may be that it's used as a tool to demonstrate extremes.
The extreme danger of deep space and the shady types that float about, the extreme fuck up that is angus's head.
I think for covenant too it's the shows the mess his napper is in, his extreme situation in which he doesn't even believe. The extreme needs/frustations he had bottled up .
Both are men on the edge but doesn't excuse the behaviour.
They are both anti hero's, main characters that even though they do things you cannot approve of you end up gelling with as a reader.
I think Donalson has a bit of a thing for non conventional heros/main characters. Like the drunk in some of his other books.
I suppose in a lot of ways not being all round good guys makes them and the worlds they live in more believeable.
The extreme danger of deep space and the shady types that float about, the extreme fuck up that is angus's head.
I think for covenant too it's the shows the mess his napper is in, his extreme situation in which he doesn't even believe. The extreme needs/frustations he had bottled up .
Both are men on the edge but doesn't excuse the behaviour.
They are both anti hero's, main characters that even though they do things you cannot approve of you end up gelling with as a reader.
I think Donalson has a bit of a thing for non conventional heros/main characters. Like the drunk in some of his other books.
I suppose in a lot of ways not being all round good guys makes them and the worlds they live in more believeable.
So you are trying to say that Angus took no pleasure in raping Morn?
Hmm
I noticed quite a few similarities between the two characters and how we are introduced to them.
They initially act in a manner that proper society would detest and are anti hero's. At first they resist all efforts to do good, damage themselves even more, then spend the remainder of the books redeeming themselves.
That is only the start.
Hmm
I noticed quite a few similarities between the two characters and how we are introduced to them.
They initially act in a manner that proper society would detest and are anti hero's. At first they resist all efforts to do good, damage themselves even more, then spend the remainder of the books redeeming themselves.
That is only the start.
I don't think TC raped Lena for pleasure. I think he raped her because he was angry. Rape generally isn't about pleasure, not even for the rapist. It's about 2 things: rage and power. I'm not even certain, when you come down to it, that Angus raped Morn for pleasure. Yes, he got pleasure out of it, but that wasn't his primary reason for doing it. He did it because he wanted to show that he had power: more power than Nick Succorso, more power than a beautiful and desirable woman. He wanted to show that he had more power than the things that had been done to him as a child.Darth Revan wrote:No... I don't think they are that much a like at all... I mean Thomas didn't rape Lena for the pleasure of breaking her, or hurting her. He just did it for his own pleasure. And he regreted it right away... well...maybe not right away... but soon after he did it...
In some ways, TC's rape of Lena was about the same thing--it was about proving that he had power over his circumstances, when he had been feeling powerless for so long. For people who are essentially weak, rage is a kind of power.
So in that way, TC and Angus--and even, perhaps, Castellan Lebbick from Mordant's Need--are all similar. They try to hide their powerlessness--their impotence, if you will--behind rage. And damaged women make easy targets. That's where TC is different. His victim was not damaged at all; in fact, she was the opposite of damaged--wholly innocent, completely clean. He rapes her, and the act is a reflection of what leprosy has done to his body, and what Lord Foul will do to the Land. You could almost say that it's a "pure" defilement--its symbolism is crystal clear.
Angus's rape of Morn is dirtier, more low-down--not just because it's so graphic, or so protracted, but because it's so premeditated, so planned, and his victim is so emotionally defenseless (even without the implant). The symbolism isn't quite as clear (at least to me). And I think maybe his reasons are more convoluted, which is why his "redemption" is itself follows such a torturous route.
Halfway down the stairs Is the stair where I sit. There isn't any other stair quite like it. I'm not at the bottom, I'm not at the top; So this is the stair where I always stop.
Don't take this personally, but I cringe whenever I see Covenant referred to as an "anti-hero." Actually, much like SRD himself, I don't like the term "anti-hero" at all. Covenant is a damaged and flawed protagonist who finds redemption over the course of the series...in fact, the entire series is about Covenant's redemption. In a sense, the same is true for Angus, except that he begins his series far, far lower than Covenant does, and doesn't so much find redemption as he does healing.
As far as SRD having a "thing for unconventional [protagonists]," he's not all that different, really, from the writers of many classic stories. You know, the kinds you have to study in English class. Sure, his characters seem vastly different from the pop-culture bubblegum crap that Hollywood directors and many modern-day fantasy writers spew forth, but it's not because he's bizarre or unusual...he just has a sophistication closer to that of the great authors of the past.
As far as SRD having a "thing for unconventional [protagonists]," he's not all that different, really, from the writers of many classic stories. You know, the kinds you have to study in English class. Sure, his characters seem vastly different from the pop-culture bubblegum crap that Hollywood directors and many modern-day fantasy writers spew forth, but it's not because he's bizarre or unusual...he just has a sophistication closer to that of the great authors of the past.
Anyone perfect must be lying, anything easy has its cost, anyone plain can be lovely, anyone loved can be lost.
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Warmark Jay
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TC and Angus are different in a fundamental way: TC is essentially a "good" man who's fallen from grace and seeks redemption, and Angus is essentially an "evil" man (perhaps through no fault of his own) who strives to find some shred of humanity.
Of the two, Angus's struggle is the more intriguing. At some level, the reader knows that TC will redeem himself, and that he will right the wrongs that he's responsible for. We immediately feel for TC, because he's a victim. And as his story progresses, we feel for him because he wants to do right by others.
Angus, on the other hand, does not seek redemption. He knows what he is, and knows that he'll never be able to truly redeem himself in the eyes of others. Nor does he care. His struggle is to be rid of those who have some measure of control over him - Morn, Dios, Holt, and Nick. As his story progresses, we feel for him not because he's becoming a "good guy" (remember that he's more than willing to sacrifice anyone who tries to be his master), but because he seeks to separate himself from his present circumstance as well as the horrors of his childhood. Angus seeks freedom, not redemption.
Of the two, Angus's struggle is the more intriguing. At some level, the reader knows that TC will redeem himself, and that he will right the wrongs that he's responsible for. We immediately feel for TC, because he's a victim. And as his story progresses, we feel for him because he wants to do right by others.
Angus, on the other hand, does not seek redemption. He knows what he is, and knows that he'll never be able to truly redeem himself in the eyes of others. Nor does he care. His struggle is to be rid of those who have some measure of control over him - Morn, Dios, Holt, and Nick. As his story progresses, we feel for him not because he's becoming a "good guy" (remember that he's more than willing to sacrifice anyone who tries to be his master), but because he seeks to separate himself from his present circumstance as well as the horrors of his childhood. Angus seeks freedom, not redemption.
"That must be the King."
"How do you know?"
"He hasn't got sh*t all over him."
"How do you know?"
"He hasn't got sh*t all over him."
No, I don't think they're much alike. Not in who they are anyway. But in some ways they're social standing could be said to be alike.
Thomas Covenant is a leper; despised, loathed and feared throughout the town he lives in.
Angus Thermopyle is like wise despised, loathed and feared, throughout Com-Line.
They are both out casts. But the differences for that outcasting are significant.
Also it could be said that Thomas has a shadow of Angus' desperation to survive. That is why he needs to believe that the Land is a dream so vehemently in the First Chronicles. He is fighting for his survival.
So yes, they could be said to share certain traits. But there are also profound differences' between the two characters.
Thomas Covenant is a leper; despised, loathed and feared throughout the town he lives in.
Angus Thermopyle is like wise despised, loathed and feared, throughout Com-Line.
They are both out casts. But the differences for that outcasting are significant.
Also it could be said that Thomas has a shadow of Angus' desperation to survive. That is why he needs to believe that the Land is a dream so vehemently in the First Chronicles. He is fighting for his survival.
So yes, they could be said to share certain traits. But there are also profound differences' between the two characters.