Am I the only person that didnt hate Angus at the start?

[Lord Doom]

I read the Gap series many many times and Angus had been my favourite character in the series. I liked him at the start and liked him more as the books continued.

He was just a man trying to survive in a harse world. He may of (allegedly) done a few bad things, but we all have to do what we have to do to survive.

I was rooting for him the whole series.

[wayfriend]

I liked Angus ... as a character. That is, I was interested in reading about him. Besides, it wasn't that hard to figure out that one day he'd be a good guy.

[Lord Doom]

Hold the pat on the back..yes, most people kinda guessed that he would end up being a good guy (sort of)

I meant, did you root for him right at the start of the series.

[Loredoctor]

No, I wanted him dead.

[Lord Doom]

Why?

He was doing what was necessary to survive against the odds.

[Loredoctor]

Why? He was a murderer and rapist.

[Alynna Lis Eachann]

I liked the way the character was set up as a protagonist. I despised and was disgusted by him as a person. It is incredible that SRD was able to turn him into someone I rooted for in the end.

One might have to kill to survive, but what survival need does rape serve? (And don't tell me "sex." Plenty of folks out there never get any and live way more productive lives than Angus did prior to his welding.)

[Creator]

I liked the way the character was set up as a protagonist. I despised and was disgusted by him as a person. It is incredible that SRD was able to turn him into someone I rooted for in the end.

One might have to kill to survive, but what survival need does rape serve? (And don't tell me "sex." Plenty of folks out there never get any and live way more productive lives than Angus did prior to his welding.)

I agree!

And it was worse than rape - it was vile and sadistic sexual torture. Designed to degrade!! I don't know if I "rooted" for him in the end. Let's say I was less passionate about removing certain body parts with a ragged and rusty knife!!

[lurch]

...As I recall..Thermo-pile of crap,,was presented by the story teller as a victim rite from the get go. Victimized as a child who grew up only knowing how to victimize others. Its been awhile since the 4th read or so.
yes ,,he was top notch Survivor....but..no..the character was never meant to be liked..it seemed to me that the character was to be compared to. Instead of a shining example...he was a dirt bag example,,that others in their extremes sooner or later met or exceeded in their own way..So,,to answer your question LD...yes,,you just mite be the only one..Happy Happy...........MEL

[I'm Murrin]

I felt sorry for Angus from the start. He was so pitiful, right from the moment he ran from Starmaster. A life ruled by fear...

And remember, a major point to the books was this: Nick Succorso was worse, because he did things out of hate and/or personal gain, not fear.

[Lord Doom]

For Angus it was survival, pure and simple. The breaking down of Morn was necessary for Angus.

All of his actions were based on fear and survival.

It's easy to judge others, but picture actually walking in their shoes.

Picture having absolutely nothing, tortured, beat up, humiliated, broken down, and then released to the world and forced to survive by any means necessary.

Your choices would be much different.

[Loredoctor]

I know I wouldn't murder or rape. I'd sooner kill myself before lowering myself to that point.
Further, Angus' past is no justifacation; we cant excuse murderers or rapists just because they had a hard time growing up.
Remember, Angus becomes a hero not because how we justify him, but the way he seeks redemption.

[Lord Doom]

It's easier to judge someone when you havent walked in their shoes, isnt it.

I've been around the world in some really crappy places and have seen what drives people to survive.

Keep in mind, Angus isn't living in present day either. Society morals and options are quite different in the book.

[pondhopper]

Nope, didn't like em'..................thought I saw a reflection of mine own beast within.

[Alynna Lis Eachann]

Like I said before, killing to survive is one thing. Raping for a power trip is something else. As Loremaster said, the fact that Angus is able to redeem himself is what makes him a worthwhile individual.

As for morals and opinions being different in the society in which the Gap takes place, do not confuse the pirate backwater for the norm. It's the same in real life. There are places where that sort of behavior is commonplace, and there are places where it is a shocking rarity. Remember Min Donner's reaction to Morn's plight - her values illustrate the "civilized" opinion, the one prevalent in the safe areas of human space. Illegal society in the Gap does have its own set of moral rules, but I think we ought not apply the lowest common denominator to developing a social ethical standard.

Speaking of judging, do not assume that everyone here comes from some peaceful, idyllic suburb where nobody ever gets hurt. One can experience a world of pain and still retain a moral standard that prevents them from wilfully hurting others.

[Lord Doom]

I dont assume anything.

I like to look at the world my own way sometimes, and not the way certain societies dictate I should look and feel towards everything.

[Loredoctor]

It's easier to judge someone when you havent walked in their shoes, isnt it.

I've been around the world in some really crappy places and have seen what drives people to survive.

Keep in mind, Angus isn't living in present day either. Society morals and options are quite different in the book.

Funny that you say that; care to judge Angus from Morn's shoes? It's all fine to justify rape and murder, just think of the cost to the victim.

[Lord Doom]

I do think of the cost to the victim.

She was a stronger person than I could ever dream of being, and again, she had to be out of necessity.

I wasn't judging either.

[The Dreaming]

Hrm, Angus was vile in the real story. You really can't justify his actions by saying he was a victim. This doesn't absolve evil, as much as modern society seems to believe that it does.

Well, I also have to say that by the end of forbidden knowledge, I was rooting for new Robo-Angus to find and destroy captain sheepf***er. I hated him FAR more than Angus. Angus just wanted to survive and was made to hate humanity. Sheepf***er never committed evil on the scale of Angus, but I hate petty evils FAR more than large scale ones. A man who will commit atrocities just to save his self-image, to seem powerful, is a far more vile representation of evil.

Compare him to Angus. When Angus' world was turned upside down, he learned empathy and love. When Nick’s world turned upside-down, he only became viler.

No, Angus' actions are by now means excusable, but he redeemed himself in the end. He became a passable human being at the end of the story. This is a remarkable transformation.

[Warmark Jay]

When Angus' world was turned upside down, he learned empathy and love.

IMHO, Angus was capable of empathy, but to say that he learned to love is a bit of a stretch. I posted this in the "Are Angus and TC Alike?" thread:

Angus, on the other hand, does not seek redemption. He knows what he is, and knows that he'll never be able to truly redeem himself in the eyes of others. Nor does he care. His struggle is to be rid of those who have some measure of control over him - Morn, Dios, Holt, and Nick. As his story progresses, we feel for him not because he's becoming a "good guy" (remember that he's more than willing to sacrifice anyone who tries to be his master), but because he seeks to separate himself from his present circumstance as well as the horrors of his childhood. Angus seeks freedom, not redemption.