Time Travel & Linden's choices-Warning:Unblackened Spoil

[Jerico]

Yes I agree. Which ever way we look at it the Law of Time must be able to withstand those kind of 'rents', because they take place in the book and the Arch didn't crumble.


In fact I thought of another 'time and space issue'. Linden and crew travel to the Lands past about three thousand years. Linden at that time was in 2 places at the same time! She was still in the 'real' world about 1 year after returning from the Land?

[IVB]

In fact I thought of another 'time and space issue'. Linden and crew travel to the Lands past about three thousand years. Linden at that time was in 2 places at the same time! She was still in the 'real' world about 1 year after returning from the Land?

I think SRD answered this in the GI, have to look it up but if I remember correctly, the two worlds are separate and isolated so actions contained under the arch do not "leak" out.

[Jerico]

Well just got an answer to the main question of Lindens choice on the GI.
I'm thrilled that SRD answered this.
Question was*I was wondering about freedom of chice on Linden's part. In the first 6 books this is an on going theme, but in Runes it seems her choice is taken from her. She believes she has to go back to get the Staff because she already has? Does she lose her freedom of choice?

SRD answer **
The key word here is "believes." Linden believes she needs to go back for the Staff because a) Covenant told her to. b) it's the only tool of power she understands, and c) she doesn't know what else to do. (She *hopes* the fact that the Staff is no longer in Anele's cave means she will succeed: but that isn't her reason for taking the risk) And as long as she's doing what she believes she needs to do, she is still exercising her personal freedom of choice.
Indeed, I question whether it is *possible* to deprive someone of freedom of choice (short of somehow reducing that someone to a vegetative state--in which case we aren't actually talking about someone anymore, we're talking about the person(s) who did the reducing.) Hence the continuing importance of characters like Anele, Joan, and Jeremiah.
End quote**

[MrKABC]

Well just got an answer to the main question of Lindens choice on the GI.
I'm thrilled that SRD answered this.
Question was*I was wondering about freedom of chice on Linden's part. In the first 6 books this is an on going theme, but in Runes it seems her choice is taken from her. She believes she has to go back to get the Staff because she already has? Does she lose her freedom of choice?

SRD answer **
The key word here is "believes." Linden believes she needs to go back for the Staff because a) Covenant told her to. b) it's the only tool of power she understands, and c) she doesn't know what else to do. (She *hopes* the fact that the Staff is no longer in Anele's cave means she will succeed: but that isn't her reason for taking the risk) And as long as she's doing what she believes she needs to do, she is still exercising her personal freedom of choice.
Indeed, I question whether it is *possible* to deprive someone of freedom of choice (short of somehow reducing that someone to a vegetative state--in which case we aren't actually talking about someone anymore, we're talking about the person(s) who did the reducing.) Hence the continuing importance of characters like Anele, Joan, and Jeremiah.
End quote**

Ahhhhh... neat answer...

I wanted to bring up the Staff of Law again... Someone else earlier mentioned that no one had been around to use the new Staff enough to give it the same properties as the original.

I remember High Lord Prothall being unable to "unlock" the Staff after taking it away from Drool Rockworm due to his lack of knowledge. Without someone to teach this knowledge isn't the new Staff somewhat useless?

Since both the Law of Death and the Law of Life had been broken, why not call up High Lord Kevin or somebody like that, give him the Staff, and try to fix things in that manner?

OR... at the very least, have the called up High Lord instruct the new user on the lore and knowledge of the Staff?

[IVB]

Well just got an answer to the main question of Lindens choice on the GI.

I thought that in this long thread we (at least I did) came to the conclusion that SRD had an idea of the time travel rules he wanted to work with, and would ignore or was unaware of the difficult problems introduced for the sake of the story. Look at any TV of movie time travel plot line and you will see the same treatment. Perhaps SRD never investigated the philosophical implications when time travel becomes involved instead he seems to be taking the Star Trek approach where meddling in the past is OK so long as you don’t get caught. It appears the only way a plot that utilizes a linear time theory (you travel to the past, do stuff, then return to the world you left from unchanged from the moment you departed) can function is to ignore the little problems (nothing to see here, move along..) of predestination, temporal incrementing (Linden travels to the past, gets the staff goes back to the future, time passes Linden arrives in the land, travels to the past meets herself getting the staff…) and a host of other issues as well. SRD’s GI answer seems to me to be an indication that he really does not care too much or thought about the ramifications of predestiny since they get in the way of story. Can you imagine a seven page dialog between Linden and Stave on the existence of free will in a deterministic universe?

Also, I don’t think your question to SRD hit the heart of the matter. You seem to imply that Linden had no choice because she was forced to time travel so of course SRD will say she had a choice. The real heart of the matter is predestiny. If it turns out that it was always her that she took the staff, then she was predestined to do it, end of argument, she is a robot acting out instructions, programmed to think she is free. If Linden did not take the staff in the past, then she changed history in doing so, but it’s OK… she did not get caught.

On page 336 of Runes of the Earth, Esmer says altering the past rents the Law of Time, but Linden alters the past. Are we expected that believe that this is some kind of magic Law of Time? Gee, I sure hope someone got fired for that blunder…

I too posted a question a while back, in it I specifically ask about the nature of the AoT and its relation to freewill and predestiny. Hopefully, he anser.

[IVB]

Since both the Law of Death and the Law of Life had been broken, why not call up High Lord Kevin or somebody like that, give him the Staff, and try to fix things in that manner?

OR... at the very least, have the called up High Lord instruct the new user on the lore and knowledge of the Staff?

Yea, the last time that was tried, it turned out so well

Remember the ansers of the Dead rebound on the living. ...

[MrKABC]

Since both the Law of Death and the Law of Life had been broken, why not call up High Lord Kevin or somebody like that, give him the Staff, and try to fix things in that manner?

OR... at the very least, have the called up High Lord instruct the new user on the lore and knowledge of the Staff?

Yea, the last time that was tried, it turned out so well

Remember the ansers of the Dead rebound on the living. ...

Uhhhh... yeah... I hadn't thought of that...

It seemed to work OK when High Lord Elena was holding the Staff against the Land though... but yeah.. Despite doesn't care about BAD things happening...

[bhoywonder]

Perhaps SRD never investigated the philosophical implications when time travel becomes involved instead he seems to be taking the Star Trek approach where meddling in the past is OK so long as you don’t get caught. It appears the only way a plot that utilizes a linear time theory (you travel to the past, do stuff, then return to the world you left from unchanged from the moment you departed) can function is to ignore the little problems (nothing to see here, move along..) of predestination, temporal incrementing (Linden travels to the past, gets the staff goes back to the future, time passes Linden arrives in the land, travels to the past meets herself getting the staff…) and a host of other issues as well. SRD’s GI answer seems to me to be an indication that he really does not care too much or thought about the ramifications of predestiny since they get in the way of story. Can you imagine a seven page dialog between Linden and Stave on the existence of free will in a deterministic universe?

Well done IVB. Great post and I for one can't wait on SRD's reply to your question on your GI, because I think that you (above most on this thread) have understood the situation and the potential pitfalls as well as anybody.
In my opinion his reply was slightly disappointing considering the wealth of material out there on the philosophy of time travel and (in his arrogance???)he doesn't seem to have taken cognisance of this at all.

SRD is one of my favourite authors of all time, and I thought that if he had gone down a particular path he would know that 'here be dragons' if he didn't get it right, especially when the SF geeks came out of the woodwork on the GAP series when he started breaking the laws of physics. SRD has proven that he is at least as smart as the smartest minds on here, so there's no excuses for him not to address these issues, surely?

[wayfriend]

Perhaps SRD never investigated the philosophical implications when time travel becomes involved ...

I don't think SRD is as interested in world-building as he is in story-telling. His time travel will be exactly what he needs to tell his story, and he won't worry too much about the implications of the implications of the implications.

[Creator]

I don't think SRD is as interested in world-building as he is in story-telling. His time travel will be exactly what he needs to tell his story, and he won't worry too much about the implications of the implications of the implications.

That's what we're here for!!!

[bhoywonder]

That's what we're here for!!!

That's what I thought too!

However, does that excuse his responsibility to the fans? He created his world after all!

[IVB]

However, does that excuse his responsibility to the fans? He created his world after all!

I would say that he has no responability to us at all. I pay for the entertainment of his work, if he ceases to entertain me, I stop paying. As you said he created his world, he can make up any rules he likes but IMHO, his responsability is to the story, he should make it as logicaly consitent as possible, sticking to "laws" he has established and when those laws are broken, "bad" things are the end result.

Thanks for the comments earlier.

[Steve Hurtloam]

I have a question I haven't seen here before:

Now that Linden has gotten the Staff of Law from the past, does that remove the Staff from the timeline, and there's only one Staff in the present?

My thinking is, Covenant told her to get the Staff, she decided to pull it out of a "safe point" in the past; but there was a current Staff of Law in the present SOMEWHERE, right? What became of that one?

[IVB]

I have a question I haven't seen here before:

Now that Linden has gotten the Staff of Law from the past, does that remove the Staff from the timeline, and there's only one Staff in the present?

My thinking is, Covenant told her to get the Staff, she decided to pull it out of a "safe point" in the past; but there was a current Staff of Law in the present SOMEWHERE, right? What became of that one?

This is actually one of the things we have been debating.

To put it simply, if Linden was not predestined to get the staff of law (i.e. it was in the Waynhim cave for 3000 years) then Linden changed the past and undid those years. They ceased to exist when she made the trip.

If Linden was predestined to get the staff from the past, then the staff never existed for those 3000 years.

In either case, the end result is that the staff did not exist for the time in question.

[Steve Hurtloam]

Okay, I guess you're right. I always think Star Trek-like and think of multiple timelines, so there could be more than one staff in Linden's current time.

(I noticed someone else mentioned Star Trek earlier.)

Anyway, to me, it seems that Linden has done some more amazing "magical" feats than Covenant ever did. Time Traveling! I had no idea the Ranyhyn would be helpful in this capacity, and they too seem much cooler than Covenant's Ranyhyn.

I'm rambling. Sorry.

[IVB]

Okay, I guess you're right. I always think Star Trek-like and think of multiple timelines, so there could be more than one staff in Linden's current time.

(I noticed someone else mentioned Star Trek earlier.)

Anyway, to me, it seems that Linden has done some more amazing "magical" feats than Covenant ever did. Time Traveling! I had no idea the Ranyhyn would be helpful in this capacity, and they too seem much cooler than Covenant's Ranyhyn.

I'm rambling. Sorry.

Star Trek uses multiple models of time travel depending on series or even episode. One of the most common is going back and tweak the past or stop someone else from changing the past without getting caught and changing your timeline. Another model used frequently is the predestination model where the crew's actions in the past were always a part of history so they had to go back because they already did so. Other time travel plots involve a "many worlds" theory where when you change the past, your aparent time line forks on a new path while your original timeline continues without you. In this sort of device you can go back and terminate your grandparents without creating the clasic paradox. Unfortunatly this device does not make for very interesting good vs. evil stories since the bad guys win as often as the good guys. Sliders is a good example of this device.

This time travel plot is verging on lame, there is way to much potential for abuse here if the Law of Time can be tweaked. You probably could contort causality in such a way to get two Staves of Law but I would bet that this would break the Arch. How about this: Linden knows that Berek's staff was in Mt Thunder for before Drool found it. So she slips back to the past, finds it then moves forward again. Now she has doubled her fire power. Why stop there, Liand is sad because all he has for a weapon is a simple Stonedowner knife, no problem says Linden, we just pop back to the time between the 1st and 2nd Chronicles and snag the Krill. As long as she gets them back before they are recovered, everything is cool right?

I am reserving final judgment until I see were SRD is going with this, I expect/hope Linden's actions have a serious consequences is the following books. If it turns out that her day trip to the past was a simple plot device and nothing more I will be disapointed.

[bhoywonder]

I am reserving final judgment until I see were SRD is going with this, I expect/hope Linden's actions have a serious consequences is the following books. If it turns out that her day trip to the past was a simple plot device and nothing more I will be disapointed.

I'm with you on this one, IVB. I desperately hope it won't turn out lame - it's got the potential to spoil everything.

Cool fish, by the way...

And the soap thing is bordering on genius...

(Sorry to be a suckass...)

[IVB]

.

And the soap thing is bordering on genius...

Thanks, but I would not go that far. It's easier to make fun of someone elses work than to create something yourself. Its fun, but now I have to go research soap opera plots and twists to com up with ideas...

[Warmark]

but if she took the krill for liand then their would be no Lord Mhorm's Victory and teh giants army would win, also their would be no anele because caer caveral would not have been killed by the krill

[High Lord Tolkien]

but if she took the krill for liand then their would be no Lord Mhorm's Victory and teh giants army would win, also their would be no anele because caer caveral would not have been killed by the krill

Reread IVB's Warmark, you missed alot.
It's ok, time travel theory can really mess up a person's head.
It does to me anyway!