Humans

Post by **Revan** » Tue May 20, 2003 3:43 pm

I know that this has nothing much to do with Thomas Covenant, but in ither topics, others have said things regarding Linden's and Thomas' crimes. So I'll just get on with it:

It is common knowledge that humans are the most cruel and barbaric creatures on the earth. Though most people say they don't have it in them to kill, rape, torture, (As Freud once said) "All people know in their hearts they do have the capability to kill, rape, torture."

Do You Agree?

Post by **duchess of malfi** » Tue May 20, 2003 4:01 pm

No, I don't agree at all.

Post by **Skyweir** » Tue May 20, 2003 4:43 pm

sorry neither do I ..

Post by **I'm Murrin** » Tue May 20, 2003 5:56 pm

Any man is capable of murder - just because you never will doesn't mean you couldn't. Anyone could be brought to that point by, say, immense grief or anger.

Post by **danlo** » Tue May 20, 2003 6:07 pm

I don't even kill bugs...mayb not in our hearts...but our logic cannot deny the possibility that we r capable of such acts...chosing not 2 is a cornerstone of lifelong actions that can transform us in2 "real" human beings.

Post by **Damelon** » Tue May 20, 2003 6:53 pm

Some behavior tests have had disturbing results, such as the test where the subjects had to provide, what they thought was electric shock to patients. Many would continue to apply, if they were told to do so by someone they thought was in authority, electric shocks at levels where they were told were dangerous to patients. So I think that a latent ability exists.

Post by **Lord Mhoram** » Tue May 20, 2003 7:27 pm

There are good ones and bad ones, Tuvor. Everyone is capable of anything. [/b]

Post by **Skyweir** » Wed May 21, 2003 5:26 am

ability is one thing .. and a propensity is another ..

If I was called up and had to go to war .. I could pull a trigger .. When I was a cop .. I was in real situations were I had to disarm and disable persons we apprehended ..

But exhibit wanton violent behaviour .. for no purpose other than some form of gratification?? I have no inclination to exercise my power over another to demean that person .. as in rape.

I do not believe we are animals .. when you say .. we are capable of anything .. yes sure .. we are capable of control and choice .. and rational thought .. does this imply we are also capable of heinous crimes against another human being>

.. why is this deemed 'natural behaviour'? I dont believe it is natural to kill or rape .. to hurt or injure ..

Pychopathic and socio-pathic behaviours tend toward anti-social contructs ..
and rape and murder are among those anti-social constructs we are referring to.

I am not capable of murder .. I may be capable of killing .. perhaps .. I am not capable of rape .. I am capable of having casual sexual intercourse .. yes I am capable .. choice .. restraint .. self-control .. and self-assuredness .. and the capacity for rational thougt may prevent this ..

I guess what I am saying is .. that just because we belong to the race of humans .. does not imply we have the same inclinations of psycho an socio- paths ..

human behaviour is both socially beneficient as well as its potential to be socially malificient ..

We can choose .. to save or damn .. the paradox of life .. behaviour .. humanity ..

Post by **Dag son of Dag** » Wed May 21, 2003 9:54 am

People are capable of anything. Just think of Nazi-Germany during WWII and the camps where Jews were massmurdered..the leaders of those camps were often normal family men who collectled stamps etc. As long as we think we have a good reason for commiting violent acts, we`ll do it.

Post by **Revan** » Wed May 21, 2003 12:17 pm

I do not believe we are animals .. when you say .. we are capable of anything .. yes sure .. we are capable of control and choice .. and rational thought .. does this imply we are also capable of heinous crimes against another human being

Exactly, we are capable of choice, somethings no other animal has when killing; because they act on instinct, they don't really have a choice because thats their nature. But we do, so yes, I think that we (only a very small amount of us) are, if not worst than animals.

Post by **Romeo** » Wed May 21, 2003 1:58 pm

I'm trying to think of a way to say this that doesn't make me sound like a monster...

I don't believe in the universal good will of people. By default, I expect people to be lazy and self centered. I think it's instictual to for the individual to survive, and to do so in the most efficient way possible (which says the exact same thing as the previous sentence, only being less blunt about it). I believe that it takes work and training to break from this instinct, and I admire the people who have done it. I'd like to think that I admire hard working, generous people even more under this philosophy, rather than if I expected them to be that way from the start. People earn my trust by showing me that they are strong enough, and well trained enough, to break from the "lazy, self centered" mold that I hold as the human standard. That doesn't mean that I look at the human race in a negative way. Humans are whatever they are. We can't change that, we can only change how we feel about it. I just view things at a different angle than others.

One exception that comes to mind about this rule is the mothering instinct. That's one situation that comes to mind where it's instinctual to put another's safety in front of your own. But charging up a hill to take out a machine gun nest takes training (bordering on brain washing), courage which is learned and not born, and selflessness which astounds me.

Here's another twist on the theory (which will be food for my second novel, once I get the first one polished up and sold). We all have demons inside of us. Some are stronger than others, and some of us control them better than others. But they are always there, pushing us in socially unacceptable directions. Our measure of a human being in a civilized world is based on how well we control these demons - or how well they control us. Turn off the TV and radio, close your eyes, and look deep inside of yourself. Shut off the civilized part of your mind, and search for the primal, raging, lustful demon. Can you see it? Can you feel it? How hard was it to find? Did it appear as soon as you closed your eyes, or did you have to look hard for it? Is it solid or ethereal? Tiny or massive? What color is it? It's burning in there - pounding against its cage to be set free. Picture the cage. What material is it made from? Are the bars meshed or unidirectional? Are they thick or thin? Do they bend when the beast throws itself against them? How big is the door? How sturdy is the lock? What is the demon saying? Is it male or female? Does it talk calmly (trying to reason with you), or does it yell ... or scream? What would it do if you let it out?

Sleep tight. And remember ... I'm not a monster!

Post by **[Syl]** » Wed May 21, 2003 5:09 pm

The human mind can be a dark, dangerous place, I've always beleived. When I first glimpsed the darkness inside myself, about 13 or so, I was pretty disgusted by it and became a little hateful of myself. I had a bit of a messed up childhood, and I saw some ugly patterns arising. It wasn't until I embraced my shadow and stopped trying to destroy it or run away from it, though, that I realized I was a good person, that the beast didn't define or have control of me. I learned it was quite the opposite, and that gave me a lot of personal power.

Tool wrote:Forty-Six & 2 My shadow's Shedding skin and I've been picking scabs again. I'm down digging through my old muscles looking for a clue. I've been crawling on my belly clearing out what could've been. I've been wallowing in my own confused and insecure delusions for a piece to cross me over or a word to guide me in. I wanna feel the changes coming down. I wanna know what I've been hiding in my shadow. Change is coming through my shadow. My shadow's shedding skin I've been picking my scabs again. I've been crawling on my belly clearing out what could've been I've been wallowing in my own chaotic and insecure delusions. I wanna feel the change consume me, feel the outside turning in. I wanna feel the metamorphosis and cleansing I've endured within my shadow. Change is coming. Now is my time. Listen to my muscle memory. Contemplate what I've been clinging to. Forty-six and two ahead of me. I choose to live and to grow, take and give and to move, learn and love and to cry, kill and die and to be paranoid and to lie, hate and fear and to do what it takes to move through. I choose to live and to lie, kill and give and to die, learn and love and to do what it takes to step through. See my shadow changing, stretching up and over me soften this old armor. hoping I can clear the way by stepping through my shadow, coming out the other side. Step into the shadow. Forty six and two are just ahead of me.

Post by **Skyweir** » Tue May 27, 2003 10:07 am

Romeo you made some really interesting points ..

no one would deny there isnt darkness .. or that people dont have dark-sides .. and that we all have a dark side ..

but from my limited experience .. there are all different shades of dark ..

i havent seen it all .. thank the gods .. but i have seen enough .. death murder and rape .. seen what some can do .. i cant begin to describe the horror of seeing violated bodies tortured and lifeless .. a number come to mind as i write ..

i have seen what human's can do .. sick humans .. NOT healthy humans .. i have seen the result of reprehensible acts of violence perpetrated against children and adults.

and i ask myself .. am i capable of acts akin to these .. and my answer is a resounding NO.

healthy individuals retain a consceince .. a measure by which they judge and discern appropriateness .. sick people do not.

in my work .. it would be easy to believe that all of humanity is sick and twisted .. but that would not be a balanced appraisal of the human condition ..

cos even today .. these crimes are perpetrated by the minority .. if statistics demonstrated the alternative to be true .. then we may have grounds for believing that murder, rape and attrocities are fundamentally a part of the human condition ..

but this is not so ..

sure we have dark sides .. but how dark?

and as for the Holocaust .. even within the German community there were still those who opposed National Socialist dogma .. in varying degrees of opposition.

ignorance is at the root of barbarism .. and cruelty is an even darker shade of dark ..

Post by **Romeo** » Tue May 27, 2003 1:05 pm

Demons come in all shapes and sizes. And people vary just as greatly in their ability to control or contain them.

I don't see bad people as "sick". Rather, they are simply unable to control their inner demons. Maybe they never learned how - such as inner city children who are forced to use the strength of their demons to survive the streets. Soldiers are forced to tap into theirs to do normally unspeakable things in unimaginable circumstances - sometimes for causes in which they do not believe. Then they have to come back to civilization and somehow rebottle the demon.

Some people need counceling to help them cope with their demons. Develop strategies to combat it. Some people can get help through medications - whether these strengthen their resolve, or weaken the demon. Some demons are just too strong to be controlled in any way. Either the person entirely accepts the demon, or the demon takes absolute control. We call that "criminally insane".

Overall, am I capable of such unspeakable acts myself? No. I'm stronger than my demon - or at least more stubborn and determined. And now that I recognize him, it's easeir to identify his whisperings.

But I sometimes picture myself in the role of the bad person. You need to if you ever want to try to understand why they do these things. In the name of understanding, I can picture myself doing these heinous things. (which I consider different from "seeing myself" doing them) I put aside my conceptions of civility and humanity and try to imagine what these people get out of it - how does if make them feel good or sated without revolting them to their core. But that only strengthens my resolve against the acts - I could never actually commit rape, or kill anyone for monetary gain, or do anything to any child except guard them with my own life.

Do we also have inner angels? Like in the movies, where the poles of the person have materialized - one on each shoulder? Are we puppets to these etherial things - our actions pulled toward both, but we somehow determine which way to go? Or maybe the Creator decided to measure us based on how well we do unaided against the demons?

Or maybe I read too much fantasy, and can no longer separate it from the "real world".

Post by **Earthfriend** » Tue May 27, 2003 3:52 pm

Anybody ever read Lord of the Flies

I think constructs such as 'civility' and 'humanity' are just that - constructs. Apply a little presure here, take away a supporting crutch there, and suddenly the whole thing falls apart. It's amazing just what so-called 'civilised' human biengs can do...

Post by **phoebe** » Wed May 28, 2003 2:09 am

I find it interesting that some of you seem to be referring to violence, murder, rape as instinctual, spontaneous, something you just have and are always just fighting down...
Considering I haven't slept in about 30 hours I think my point is best made by Dr David P Barash;

Barash wrote:"Human beings may possess an instinct for spontaneous aggressive behavior, although it seerns unlikely. Conceivably, all human violence results from particular environmental factors such as poor rearing conditions, frustration, social disorganization, personal neuroses or psychoses, etc." (Hare, p. 159)

What do you think?

Post by **Earthfriend** » Wed May 28, 2003 12:59 pm

Interesting. Why does Dr Barash (of whom i admittedly know nothing) think it unlikely that human's have an instinct for violence? If what is going on in the world today, (or at any moment in recorded history for that matter), is any indication, violence might be our penultimate instinct - second only to reproduction.

That aside, i pretty much agree with you whole-heartedly Phoebe. I think a propensity for violence is learned rather than intuited. (Is 'intuited' even a word?!) Nuture over Nature.

Post by **Jua** » Wed May 28, 2003 1:12 pm

No matter how anyone looks at it we are animals in clothes. What we think of as rape and murder today. Was procreation and territorial disputes to hunter gather tribe members.

Post by **Earthfriend** » Wed May 28, 2003 1:42 pm

Jua wrote:No matter how anyone looks at it we are animals in clothes. What we think of as rape and murder today. Was procreation and territorial disputes to hunter gather tribe members.

Don't know if i'm brave enough for this, but here goes...
While i agree that we are all animals with slightly over developed fore-brains, i believe that it is just that fore-brain, and a concept known as evolution, which gives us the power to grow beyond our beginnings. We grow, we evolve, which is why we don't konk potential mates on the head with our clubs, before dragging them into our caves for some romance.

Maybe it was procreation and territorial disputes to hunter/gatherers - and i don't know enough about early hunter/gatherer culture to be sure it was - but even if it was, hopefully weve grown beyond that, as a species i mean. Oh, by the Wraiths of Andelain, please may we grow beyond violence...

Post by **phoebe** » Fri May 30, 2003 8:10 am

Earthfriend wrote:Interesting. Why does Dr Barash (of whom i admittedly know nothing) think it unlikely that human's have an instinct for violence? If what is going on in the world today, (or at any moment in recorded history for that matter), is any indication, violence might be our penultimate instinct - second only to reproduction.

Good point, Earthfriend. Humanity seems to be set on violence with clear intent.
But I think Freud's drive theory (That basically the only things that drive us are sex and agression - that's what you are saying?) is a little limiting. Freud's drives are universal, but also "inherently impersonal" and incompatible with consciousness because they are primitive and indiscriminate. Barash speculates that the problem derives not so much from the instincts we have, but rather, from those we lack;

Barash wrote:"We lack genetically mediated killing inhibitions because natural selection didn't have much reason to endow us with any. After all, a naked, unarmed human being really isn't a very dangerous adversary to another, similar human being, unless he or she has had special (modern) combat training." (Hare, p. 182)

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

Humans

Humans