The Staff of Law

[MrKABC]

I started this discussion in another thread and decided to make it a stand-alone thread.

Now... WHAT exactly does the Staff of Law DO?? The original Staff was created by Berek Hearthhew, the Lord-Fatherer. In the first Chronicles, it:

Changed the color of the moon
Called up storms
Called the Fire Lions
Opened doors "deep in Revelstone"
Occasionally performed menial duties like providing light, showy effects
Enforced a preternatural winter
Imprisoned people

That's pretty much it. There was a lot of talk about how powerful the Staff was, but that power was never seen.

What am I missing here?

[Insanity Falls]

"What am I missing here?"

The Ritual of Desecration!!!
This Staff of Law is a Bad-Ass!

[drew]

Well technically you don't need the staff of law for the ROD...Amok stated that the ROD needed no lore. Plus Trell started one with a pot of graveling.

MR K-I beleive it's not so much what you can do with the staff..it's more like what the staff represents, and what Law it holds together. I don't know if you're American or not (I'm Not), but try this analagy.
The Staff of Law, is the Constitution.
The Runes on it (the origional) are the Amendments.
-but since this is a fantasy world...if you destroy the Constitution, then the rules that it represents can be broken without consiquence.

[MrKABC]

Well technically you don't need the staff of law for the ROD...Amok stated that the ROD needed no lore. Plus Trell started one with a pot of graveling.

MR K-I beleive it's not so much what you can do with the staff..it's more like what the staff represents, and what Law it holds together. I don't know if you're American or not (I'm Not), but try this analagy.
The Staff of Law, is the Constitution.
The Runes on it (the origional) are the Amendments.
-but since this is a fantasy world...if you destroy the Constitution, then the rules that it represents can be broken without consiquence.

Hmmmm... good analogy... I could even see it that you can use the "Constitution" to do bad things (warp the weather, attack and kill people, crush resistance)

But as a tool of power, it didn't seem to *do* much though...

[Fist and Faith]

Good post, drew.

As far as what the Staff could do, we can't tell. The Lords we know did not know much about Kevin's Lore, the Staff's Lore. But when Mhoram figured things out, he was devestating with his own staff, one not formed with Kevin's Lore, and even stronger with the krill. Even Elena was pretty impressive with the Staff, and "easily defended."

The Staff also made it possible for Kevin to communicate with the Haruchai when they first came to the Land. That's an ability far removed from most things I would have come up with, so I'll bet they could do tons of stuff with it.

[Insanity Falls]

"Law" brings to mind the "Laws" of physics.

And also, because of SRD's huge Christian background, I think it is safe to assume an influence of that wacky story of Volcano-God ("I am what I am, and I shall be what I shall be" ... "and I'll kill lots of children while I'm at it, and give whole nations of men over to be killed by my favourite group of terrorists, and give their women to them for ravishment) giving his tasty "Laws" to his favourites via Moses, which everyone has to respect or die, or maybe even, coz that's not good enough, be blasted in agony for ever and ever and ever and ever ...

So taking these two influences, plus the real Laws of nations, as well, what do we have?

A screamingly crazy, mixed-up, semi-sci-fi novel!

Oh, I am in a HAPPY mood today!

Yes, uh um, "Law", and "Staff of It".

Apparently SRD sees these "magical" things very clearly.

Well, good for him I say, someone's got to!

Crikey, MrKABC, are you expecting someone TO MAKE SENSE OF ALL THIS FOR YOU!

WAY TO EXPECT TOO MUCH!!

But all I can say is that dear Earthpower gave it's heart and soul to dear Berek on that mountain-top, it loved him so dear, and then gave its heart-and-soul to dear Berek again, after he'd hacked off a branch of that pesky ur-tree, (it threw up its branches in affront, and heaved up it's roots, and ran off squealing, and desperately flustered, hurled itself off a cliff, and, now in the sea, swam frantically away from shore, hauled itself on some seaweed strewn rock, shed all it's leaves, and then found itself a cave, where it huddled down, and snuggled up to a giant greasy worm), the Earthpower was moved to give all it's power and life to be entrusted for Berek for always to keep safe and supporting of Life 'n' all things good, by trusting Berek to set hard and fast the Laws of it's Action, so that it couldn't be used to hurt itself and others by that damned Grey Cackling Mist.

Damned good plan.

********************************************************************************************

Ah yes Drew, that was what I was getting at ...

An *agreement* between Earthpower and Berek about how to interact and give to each other, and work together ... a opening up of themselves to be *vulnerable* to each other, and thereby, *interworking*, and able to generate mutual benefit and new possibilities ... a shared adventure ... a risky mutual trust ... a friendship ... an agreement ... a contract .... simulating a "Law", which if used well affirms itself and helps alive-things, but if abused, damages itself and alive-things.

Hmph!


[mod edit - dlbpharmd]

[MrKABC]

Insanity Falls, thanks for the belly laugh!!!!

[Insanity Falls]

Your Welcome!

[PitchDude]

Insanity Falls - great post.

Have you considered changing your name to 'Insanity Posts'?



Jim

[dlbpharmd]

"What am I missing here?"

The Ritual of Desecration!!!

I could be wrong, but I believe that Kevin hid the old Staff somewhere in Mount Thunder before enacting the RoD with Lord Foul. Otherwise, wouldn't it have simply been left lying on the floor in Kiril Threndor?

A great tool or weapon is not needed to enact the RoD - Trell almost did it with a bunch of graveling.

[MrKABC]

"What am I missing here?"

The Ritual of Desecration!!!

I could be wrong, but I believe that Kevin hid the old Staff somewhere in Mount Thunder before enacting the RoD with Lord Foul. Otherwise, wouldn't it have simply been left lying on the floor in Kiril Threndor?

A great tool or weapon is not needed to enact the RoD - Trell almost did it with a bunch of graveling.

Kevin may not have hid the Staff - he could have died, dropped it to the floor of Kiril Threndor, and then years later some Cavewight or something (they weren't too intelligent) that didn't recognize it may have taken it away back to its barrow.

The reason I don't think Kevin hid the Staff in Mount Thunder is because he had tried to prepare the way for new Lords, by creating the Wards and leaving the First Ward with the Giants. If he didn't need the Staff, why not leave it with the Giants as well?

Speculation is fun isn't it?

[TincupCPG]

The original question was "what does the Staff of Law do?"

The Staff SUPPORTS the natural Order of Earthpower. Without it, the earthpower is that much more unable to resist various powers set loose upon it. (I.E. maybe Kevin's Dirt, etc)

Also, the Weilder of the Staff of Law can shape and use the Earthpower as a TOOL. So, the Staff does 2 things.

1) It supports the Natural Law

2) It allows the Holder of the Staff to access and use the Earthpower in much greater extremeties.

[dlbpharmd]

It is possible that Kevin did simply leave the Staff in Kiril Threndor as you describe, but I don't think it was discovered by anyone until Drool Rockworm discovered it. Foul would have known instantly if that had happened.

The entrace way to Kiril Threndor could have been damaged by the RoD, and Drool just happened to be the first one there since then.

[Encryptic]

"What am I missing here?"

The Ritual of Desecration!!!

I could be wrong, but I believe that Kevin hid the old Staff somewhere in Mount Thunder before enacting the RoD with Lord Foul. Otherwise, wouldn't it have simply been left lying on the floor in Kiril Threndor?

Foul specifically says that Kevin lost the staff at the Ritual of Desecration, which would seem to imply that he had it/used it during the Ritual. It's also mentioned later that Drool found it while delving in the deeps of Gravin Threndor.

I'd imagine that Kiril Threndor probably was left inaccessible after the Ritual until Drool happened to stumble on it while excavating in search of banes or something. The Ritual was such a massive burst of power that I wouldn't be surprised if it sparked a cave-in of Kiril Threndor in the process.

[dlbpharmd]

OK, you've all convinced me.

[MrKABC]

The original question was "what does the Staff of Law do?"

The Staff SUPPORTS the natural Order of Earthpower. Without it, the earthpower is that much more unable to resist various powers set loose upon it. (I.E. maybe Kevin's Dirt, etc)

Also, the Weilder of the Staff of Law can shape and use the Earthpower as a TOOL. So, the Staff does 2 things.

1) It supports the Natural Law

2) It allows the Holder of the Staff to access and use the Earthpower in much greater extremeties.

Yes, it was my original question. I asked it because the only time we saw the Staff of Law used, it appeared to be used for pretty petty purposes (when it was used at all). It seemed to be spending a lot of time being "lost" or "destroyed."

The most significant usage of the original Staff appeared to be Lord Foul's winter in PTP.

So, I wondered what good is the new Staff if Linden can't fight off a horde of Demondim, stop Kevin's Dirt, or even use it like High Lord Elena did.

[TincupCPG]

She definately can. The Staff of law is very powerful...and even more so the new Staff as Linden said the new Staff was basically limited only by the person who wields it. No, in "normal" times the Staff was used to jelp heal and create things, etc. Matter of fact, in "TIW" you see a consequence of the Staff being used properly and in accordance with Law.

The other scenarios we see involves the use of the Staff in wrong or dire circumstances. Even the Haruchai are dead wrong in "The Runes of the Earth". They think the Staff of Law..UNUSED..would be a great support to the land's Earthpower. Well, I have a question about that.

IF when the Staff was lost by Anele and hidden and protected by the Waynhim, if it had not been brought to the future by Avery then the Staff WAS in the Land the entire time and was unable, without being wielded, to prevent certain things from happening. Now if Linden, in bringing the Staff to the future made the Staff completely vanish from the Land from the time she grabbed it till the time she gets back to her original timeline that would mean the Staff was completely gone from the Land for thousands of years. That would "allow" for certain things happening as Earthpower is weaker without the support of the Staff. interesting.

[The Pumpkin King]

I think the Staff of Law is as powerful and capable as its wielder is in manipulating the Earthpower in which the Staff siphons power on. It's the most directly connected vessel to the heart of Earthpower itself, so its powers should, in fact, be as limitless as those as the Elohim

...Speaking of that, if the Elohim are creatures of pure Earthpower, I wonder what the Staff of Law could do to them...

In any case, it seems limited by only what the person that uses it knows. I'm sure that someone with sufficient lore could even, say, heal the Laws of Life and Death.

...I wouldn't be terribly surprised if that actually happened sometime later in the Last Chronicles...

Mind you, such a scale of healing would require an amount of knowledge unsurpassed, as we're dealing with some pretty heavy stuff. So I've not the slightest idea if, say, Linden is capable of performing such a feat. Elena, more likely than not, couldn't have healed the broken Law of Death, and she was far more lore-wise than Linden. Of course, Linden has a health-sense that surpasses that of any other recorded individual, so maybe her mettle hasn't been tested to its fullest capability yet.

But, I'm going off on a tangent, so I'll shut up.

[IVB]

I think the Staff of Law is as powerful and capable as its wielder is in manipulating the Earthpower in which the Staff siphons power on. It's the most directly connected vessel to the heart of Earthpower itself, so its powers should, in fact, be as limitless as those as the Elohim

...Speaking of that, if the Elohim are creatures of pure Earthpower, I wonder what the Staff of Law could do to them...

In any case, it seems limited by only what the person that uses it knows. I'm sure that someone with sufficient lore could even, say, heal the Laws of Life and Death.

...I wouldn't be terribly surprised if that actually happened sometime later in the Last Chronicles...

Mind you, such a scale of healing would require an amount of knowledge unsurpassed, as we're dealing with some pretty heavy stuff. So I've not the slightest idea if, say, Linden is capable of performing such a feat. Elena, more likely than not, couldn't have healed the broken Law of Death, and she was far more lore-wise than Linden. Of course, Linden has a health-sense that surpasses that of any other recorded individual, so maybe her mettle hasn't been tested to its fullest capability yet.

But, I'm going off on a tangent, so I'll shut up.

SRD impiles that the Staff could have repaird the broken Laws, but Sunder and Hollin did not do it, probably because they would have undone themselves in the process. Linden took out the Sunbane, that was a serious corruption of Law and Anele hints that he could have repaired the Durrance if he had the staff. If it came down to a showdown between the Elohim and a Staff holder, I think the Elohim would win simply because they could act faster than the Staff user could respond. The SoL would have to get the first shot in and it would have to count...

[IVB]

The other scenarios we see involves the use of the Staff in wrong or dire circumstances. Even the Haruchai are dead wrong in "The Runes of the Earth". They think the Staff of Law..UNUSED..would be a great support to the land's Earthpower. Well, I have a question about that.

IF when the Staff was lost by Anele and hidden and protected by the Waynhim, if it had not been brought to the future by Avery then the Staff WAS in the Land the entire time and was unable, without being wielded, to prevent certain things from happening. Now if Linden, in bringing the Staff to the future made the Staff completely vanish from the Land from the time she grabbed it till the time she gets back to her original timeline that would mean the Staff was completely gone from the Land for thousands of years. That would "allow" for certain things happening as Earthpower is weaker without the support of the Staff. interesting.

Check out this long thread on this subject: kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5417

I think that the masters are correct, and SRD in the GI implies the same. By it's very existence the SoL interacts and strengthens Law. Consider the Original Staff, lost and unused for centuries after the RoD, Law prevailed. Lord Foul could not corrupt Earthpower as he did in the second chronicles. Yea, I know that the Law of Death was broken too, but I think that that was just icing on the cake.