Thinking about Elena's summoning of poor dead Kevin in The Illearth War, it only just now occured to me:
Where, exactly, did Kevin come from?
It wasn't his corpse that answered Elena's call - it was Kevin himself, with all his memories etc. that came.
To me, that implies that there must have been some sort of afterlife, a Heaven or Hell or Purgatory, where Kevin's spirit was dwelling; someplace he could be called from to answer Elena's summons.
Does this make sense, or can anyone explain it another way?
The Afterlife in the Land?
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wayfriend
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I disagree that this constitutes "proof of afterlife".
Kevin's spirit may not have been anywhere at all until that point. It could have been re-created at the moment Elena summoned him.
That has been my personal belief as well. Kevin was gone. When Elena summoned him, he was brought back into existence. There is continuity; it's the same Kevin. But there is creation: a moment before, there was nothing. It's magic, after all.
Kevin's spirit may not have been anywhere at all until that point. It could have been re-created at the moment Elena summoned him.
That has been my personal belief as well. Kevin was gone. When Elena summoned him, he was brought back into existence. There is continuity; it's the same Kevin. But there is creation: a moment before, there was nothing. It's magic, after all.
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Insanity Falls
- <i>Elohim</i>
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[EDIT - I wrote this while Wayfriend and Invain wrote their entries. Hadn't read theirs!]
Life is the giver,
DEATH ENDS ALL.
When the Law of Death is broken, Kevin's re-appears as though he has come directly from the Ritual of Desecration.
So if there is any kind of "after-life" it is probably safe to say that it did not exist until AFTER the Law of Death was broken.
What's more, it may very well be that the existence that the "Dead" have when they are pulled into ghost-life through the breach in the "Law of Death" is the only "after-life" they have!!
Then in the Second Chronicles ...
That's my best take on it!
I think SRD has a pretty clear idea about what is happening, and there has been indications that The Last Chronicles will shed a lot of light on all this.
He has said something very pertinent on this already in the "Spoiler - Runes of the Earth" category in the Gradual Interview.
You can find it if you ...
(BEWARE - RUNES SPOILERS!)
In reality, remember that ...
Life is the giver,
DEATH ENDS ALL.
When the Law of Death is broken, Kevin's re-appears as though he has come directly from the Ritual of Desecration.
So if there is any kind of "after-life" it is probably safe to say that it did not exist until AFTER the Law of Death was broken.
What's more, it may very well be that the existence that the "Dead" have when they are pulled into ghost-life through the breach in the "Law of Death" is the only "after-life" they have!!
Then in the Second Chronicles ...
Spoiler
...how do "the Dead" know things? Is it that the vibrancy of the life of the Land itself in Andelain (as well as the Forestal's call, and the call of other living folk) yanks them into ghost-life, where they can interact with the Land, (as well as talk to each other, and the people that attract them)?
My bet is that they *don't exist* until they are yanked into life each time by that-which-is-alive.
And then the Forestal breaks the Law-of-Life, and the Dead kind of exist all the time and (consequentally) can, if the circumstances are right, initiate action
My bet is that they *don't exist* until they are yanked into life each time by that-which-is-alive.
And then the Forestal breaks the Law-of-Life, and the Dead kind of exist all the time and (consequentally) can, if the circumstances are right, initiate action
I think SRD has a pretty clear idea about what is happening, and there has been indications that The Last Chronicles will shed a lot of light on all this.
He has said something very pertinent on this already in the "Spoiler - Runes of the Earth" category in the Gradual Interview.
You can find it if you ...
(BEWARE - RUNES SPOILERS!)
Spoiler
Enter avatar, and then law, in the search field boxes - and select the "Spoilers - Runes of the Earth" category.
This admission gives a much more SF edge to it all - sharper I think, than a fuzzy (and crazy!) afterlife.
This admission gives a much more SF edge to it all - sharper I think, than a fuzzy (and crazy!) afterlife.
Last edited by Insanity Falls on Sat Jan 15, 2005 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The first quality that is needed is audacity"
~ Winston Churchill
~ Winston Churchill
Vain was given to Foamfollower by the Ur-Viles at some point before TC arrived in Andelain (we don’t know how long a period elapsed). This was after the Law of Death was broken of course but before the Law of Life went down the tubes too. So presumably Foamfollower must have had a continuous existence between the Ur-Viles gifted him with Vain, and TC arrived. I rather doubt Vain would have winked in and out existence with him.Re: What's more, it may very well be that the existence that the "Dead" have when they are pulled into ghost-life through the breach in the "Law of Death" is the only "after-life" they have!!
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Insanity Falls
- <i>Elohim</i>
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Wouldn't this be a likely scenario? >>>
Ur-Viles summon Foamfollower, using their tricksy lore.
They have made Vain so that he can "attract" Foamfollower into semi-existance. (The Ur-Viles can do things that others can't).
The presence of Vain keeps Foamfollower about, as Vain speeds of to Andelain.
(Or perhaps it was all done in Andelain, who knows?)
Thomas Covenant stumbles into view, gushing tears ....
Ur-Viles summon Foamfollower, using their tricksy lore.
They have made Vain so that he can "attract" Foamfollower into semi-existance. (The Ur-Viles can do things that others can't).
The presence of Vain keeps Foamfollower about, as Vain speeds of to Andelain.
(Or perhaps it was all done in Andelain, who knows?)
Thomas Covenant stumbles into view, gushing tears ....
"The first quality that is needed is audacity"
~ Winston Churchill
~ Winston Churchill
Yes, I think this could be a very likely scenario!Insanity Falls wrote:Wouldn't this be a likely scenario? >>>
Ur-Viles summon Foamfollower, using their tricksy lore.
They have made Vain so that he can "attract" Foamfollower into semi-existance. (The Ur-Viles can do things that others can't).
The presence of Vain keeps Foamfollower about, as Vain speeds of to Andelain.
(Or perhaps it was all done in Andelain, who knows?)
Thomas Covenant stumbles into view, gushing tears ....
Wouldn't Foamfollower, having died at a time when ur-viles were pretty bad dudes, be prejudiced against accepting Vain or believing anything the ur-viles had to say?
"This is the grace that has been given to you - to bear what must be borne."
Who knows?
There are several theories about what happens in the afterlife.
One of you feels that Kevin came right from the Ritual of Desecration to his summoning by Elena. Thus, he wasn't really anywhere until that law was broken. Thus, no real afterlife.
However, when Covenant meets "his dead", they clearly know something of what is going on with him then, and have some knowledge of the future (or at least of a possible future). They wouldn't have this knowledge immediately after they died.
There are parallels in our real world; people who have prophesized, people who claim to have talked to those who have died, people who come back from "after death" experiences.
And it all sums up to: We don't know! The afterlife doesn't appear to be accessible to our senses; it probably stands apart or outside of time. That may well be the situation in this fictional universe as well.
Of course, the next series is developing some issues that may address this issue much more directly!
An interesting question, debated elsewhere here, is what the denziens of the Land believed about the afterlife. There is very little organized religion described in the series. The semi-religious gatherings are more like civic meetings honoring their devotion to the Land and Earthpower.
senor trout (applicant for Land chaplain)
One of you feels that Kevin came right from the Ritual of Desecration to his summoning by Elena. Thus, he wasn't really anywhere until that law was broken. Thus, no real afterlife.
However, when Covenant meets "his dead", they clearly know something of what is going on with him then, and have some knowledge of the future (or at least of a possible future). They wouldn't have this knowledge immediately after they died.
There are parallels in our real world; people who have prophesized, people who claim to have talked to those who have died, people who come back from "after death" experiences.
And it all sums up to: We don't know! The afterlife doesn't appear to be accessible to our senses; it probably stands apart or outside of time. That may well be the situation in this fictional universe as well.
Of course, the next series is developing some issues that may address this issue much more directly!
An interesting question, debated elsewhere here, is what the denziens of the Land believed about the afterlife. There is very little organized religion described in the series. The semi-religious gatherings are more like civic meetings honoring their devotion to the Land and Earthpower.
senor trout (applicant for Land chaplain)
"Heck with the Illearth war, Hile; let's just go fishing!"