The Crux of It . . . . . . . (end of 2ndC openly discussed)

Post by **Insanity Falls** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:56 pm

When Thomas Covenant fell down in front of that police car, would any of the people - who rescued him, and took him to hospital, and cared for him - would any of those people have seen a white gold wedding ring on his hand .... OR NOT?!

Just wondering

What do you think? Does the white gold always totally and physically GO TO THE LAND?!

Post by **MrKABC** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:03 pm

I thought it was physically still here like the rest of him.

What would happen if he were knocked down by a police car and someone had come along and taken the ring? <g>

Post by **CovenantJr** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:09 pm

I agree. I always take it to be essentially a photocopying process - nothing physically leaves Covenant's world. If someone took his ring from his unconscious body while he was in the Land, I think he would just lack it when he woke up. I don't think it would affect him in the Land.

Post by **Insanity Falls** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:12 pm

Yes, this is what WE ALL THOUGHT!

And then the last line in "White Gold Weider" HITS US ALL OUT OF THE BLUE!

Hence the question!

Post by **CovenantJr** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:16 pm

I was and am of the opinion that the last line of WGW is nothing more than an authorial/editorial blip.

Post by **Insanity Falls** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:21 pm

And the last line of Runes?

Post by **MrKABC** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:38 pm

CovenantJr wrote:I was and am of the opinion that the last line of WGW is nothing more than an authorial/editorial blip.

Naaaahhh... it was the "gotcha" line that finally tells us that the Land is REAL. Something that we didn't get in the First Chronicles.

Post by **CovenantJr** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:42 pm

I disagree. SRD has said that after the First Chronicles, he was no longer interested in the question of whether the land is real. This has come up a few times in relation to parts of the Second Chronicles, and he always gives that answer. No part of the Second Chrons is about the Land's reality/unreality dilemma, because he considers that done and dusted by the end of The Power That Preserves. So I stand by "oversight"

Post by **Creator** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:52 pm

CovenantJr wrote:I disagree. SRD has said that after the First Chronicles, he was no longer interested in the question of whether the land is real. This has come up a few times in relation to parts of the Second Chronicles, and he always gives that answer. No part of the Second Chrons is about the Land's reality/unreality dilemma, because he considers that done and dusted by the end of The Power That Preserves. So I stand by "oversight"

Actually, I think your point suggests SRD affirmed that the Land is real and can, in some instances, impact the "real" world. If it could not, Foul could never have gained the influence he did in TWL.

Post by **CovenantJr** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 7:56 pm

Gah! Reeeeeead the Chrons again

By the time Covenant gets to the end of TPTP, he has decided the question of the Land's reality doesn't matter. It's another of the eye of the paradox themes that were so prevalent in the First Chrons. At the start of the Second Chrons, he says as much to Linden when they're perched on Kevin's Watch. It's either real or not, and it doesn't really matter which - that's the essence of his Unbelief once he's stopped being an arse.

So SRD never established whether it's real because that would defeat the object of the First Chrons!

Post by **Insanity Falls** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 8:35 pm

On the contrary CJ, YOU go read the Chronicles again!

Covenant realizes that his belief/disbelief dilemma does NOT affect his ability to fight and deal with what assails him, nor does it effect the importance of the decisions he makes - because he knows that, whatever else, his reactions, and their import (in himself at least), are real!

Whether he believes/disbelieves does not affect his ability to deal WELL with what he experiences, and what assails him.

As to how "cool" and "resolved" he is about his "unbelief" at the end of "The Power that Preserves", contrast his affirmation of disbelief in front of the Despiser, with his panic when the Creator offers to show him that the Land is real.

*********************************************************

Stephen Donaldson then did something totally cool.

He then wrote 2C like it was real, and having direct effects in the real world.

Considering the story of the unbelief that went before, this, IMHO, was extremely cool.

This made the story of the First Chronicles even better than ever, and HEIGHTENED the importance and significance of the whole adventure of the First Chronicles.

I mean, TC battles successfully with his unbelief, and THEN we discover it is "real".

And it promised to fulfill the story hinted at in the "note" at the beginning of it all - a story which is still unfolding ....

*********************************************************

CJr - "Denial is not a river in Eqypt, honey"

**********************************************************

Anyways, back to Covenant's white gold ring - what do people think?

Post by **CovenantJr** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 11:38 pm

I think this is another of those issues that's open to personal interpretation. I can't see that anything you've said above convinces me that the Land was established as real. But that's

Incidentally, that "denial" comment was uncalled for. Please don't do it again. A differing opinion does not constitute being in denial.

Post by **Creator** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:02 am

CovenantJr wrote:I think this is another of those issues that's open to personal interpretation. I can't see that anything you've said above convinces me that the Land was established as real.

I believe SRD did in one of the GI's. While I think he agree's with you from a story standpoint. He said that HIS perspective is that the land is "real"!

Post by **I'm Murrin** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 1:03 am

I believe that he's also mentioned that Linden having Covenant's ring is one of the many 'loose ends' he intentionally placed into the Second Chronicles which will have some significance in the Last.

Tue Jan 18, 2005 1:05 am

If you have read any of the other books, His physical form is still in the real world. When Covenanrt sent Linden back to their world to save him in White Gold Wielder, she finds his bodu there. I beleive white gold is a part of Covenant so it would be in both places at the same time. I hope this helps.

Post by **kevinswatch** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:37 am

Great... Beacuse of this topic you all made me go through all the effort into finding my copy of WGW just to remember what the last line was, heh.

Although I'm not tempted yet to skip ahead to the end of Runes to find out the last line to that one, heh.-jay

(Still on page 140-something. Heh.)

Post by **MrKABC** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:38 am

kevinswatch wrote:Great... Beacuse of this topic you all made me go through all the effort into finding my copy of WGW just to remember what the last line was, heh.

Although I'm not tempted yet to skip ahead to the end of Runes to find out the last line to that one, heh.-jay

(Still on page 140-something. Heh.)

Hey, then what are you doing here??? Here be Spoilers ya know...

Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:40 am

It was just my thought of how the white gold could be in both places.

Post by **Aleksandr** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:59 pm

So I stand by "oversight"

If you mean that Linden having the Ring at the end of WGW was an accident I would suggest that it was very much deliberate and for an obvious reason: she needed to have it still for the Last Chronicles (which SRD claims to have planned even way back then). Otherwise we would have needed someone to dig up Covenant’s ten-year-buried body to get the Ring for Linden in Runes.

Post by **MrKABC** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:08 pm

Couldn't she just have gone to Target or something and bought a pair of white gold earrings, or a pendant, or something like that?

(I hear they are 10% off right now, for a limited time!)