Linden's power to destroy the Arch?

[Borillar]

I don't know if this is considered a spoiler or not, since this whole section of the Watch is devoted to stuff from Runes, but I'll encode it anyway:

Spoiler

In Runes, Linden has a vision of herself destroying the Arch of Time. Yet I thought it was made clear in TOT that the only way Covenant had the power to destroy the Arch was because he was afflicted with venom, and that his power would be too insignificant without it?

Also, one thing I never got about TOT is that everyone in the party seems to miss the significance of the fact that Vain's arm is now made out of wood. Did it never occur to Covenant that that wood was wood from the One Tree that he could potentially use to make a Staff?

[CovenantJr]

It never occurred to me either

As regards breaking the Arch: wild magic has always had that capability - after all, that's wy Foul wants it - but I don't have my books handy to comment on the venom situation.

[MrKABC]

I didn't see the wooden arm / Staff of Law connection either... I assumed that Vain had been made to get a branch of the One Tree for a new Staff, and then he would die and be left in the chamber of the One Tree. <shrug> Shows you what I know!

I also thought that the breaking of the Arch of Time was a by-product of venom, but I guess not? Not sure now... BUT.. I think that the amount of power required to break the Arch had to be more than Lord Foul used at the end of WGW... "enough power to leave the One Tree in ash and cinders" so I don't think Linden is in any danger of breaking the Arch with the small amount of power she is displaying.

[CovenantJr]

The reason Foul's display at the end of WGW didn't break the Arch is because by that point Covenant himself was one with the wild magic, and consequently the keystone of the Arch too. Foul was trying to attack Covenant with Covenant.

Ordinarily, Linden's flimsy little flashes of wild magic would be nowhere near enough to do the Arch any damage (after all, Covenant exercised far more of it in the Second Chronicles without any chance of calamity, except in the cavern of the One Tree) but the Arch is now badly weakened by caesures, and we don't know how much more battering it can take.

[MrKABC]

The reason Foul's display at the end of WGW didn't break the Arch is because by that point Covenant himself was one with the wild magic, and consequently the keystone of the Arch too. Foul was trying to attack Covenant with Covenant.

Ordinarily, Linden's flimsy little flashes of wild magic would be nowhere near enough to do the Arch any damage (after all, Covenant exercised far more of it in the Second Chronicles without any chance of calamity, except in the cavern of the One Tree) but the Arch is now badly weakened by caesures, and we don't know how much more battering it can take.

Hmmmm... good points, both of them...

In that case how is it that only LINDEN is restricted in the wild magic that she uses and not Joan? Joan is exerting wild magic as well, creating the caesures - why would Lord Foul permit that? Findail said, "should the Worm of the World's End be roused finding the Despiser without the white ring in his hand, would he not be consumed also?" (paraphrasing)

[CovenantJr]

Who's to say Foul is permitting it? Ok, Foul hand a significant hand in inducing Joan's madness, but there's no evidence that he still controls it. To my mind, Joan is unintentionally creating caesures as a side effect of being crazy. In which case, would Foul want to risk trying to stop her, when she could inadvertently blast him with wild magic just because she's scared?

[MrKABC]

Who's to say Foul is permitting it? Ok, Foul hand a significant hand in inducing Joan's madness, but there's no evidence that he still controls it. To my mind, Joan is unintentionally creating caesures as a side effect of being crazy. In which case, would Foul want to risk trying to stop her, when she could inadvertently blast him with wild magic just because she's scared?

But I thought Joan was controlled by a Raver? Am I wrong?

[CovenantJr]

She was, I don't think she is now. I could be mistaken.

[MrKABC]

She was, I don't think she is now. I could be mistaken.

Hmmmmm... I have only read Runes twice, so I don't have the "encyclopedic" knowledge of that book like I do the original two Chronicles..

Sooooo... I don't know the answer to that one!

Give me time though! By the time Fatal Revenant comes out I will have this book MEMORIZED!!!

[Creator]

In respect to the venom - TC was made dangerous by the Venom because it enabled him to more easily access the "fire" of Wild Magic. Remember, TC usually needed some "trigger". The venom was the trigger inside of him!

[Jerico]

Both times Linden 'sees' inside of Joan a raver is present.
I would think that even when Joan was in the 'real' world it was present. She was beating herself up in the hospital. Then Linden gave her the ring, and started the Caesures.
Esmer says the only thing that is keeping her from smashing the arch is that she's crazy, and can't make decisions on her own. The Raver is making them for her.
As far as Linden's visions at the beginning? She saw them as prophesy, but it didn't seem like that to me. I mean she was back in the cavern of the one tree, but we know it sank into the ocean. I think it was Foul giving her some of those visions. A little truth mixed in with what he wanted her to despair about.

Oh and the first thing that crossed my mind when Vain's arm turned to Wood was that they should have let more of those stars crash into him and he would have become the Staff. Then they left and I was totally lost about it.

[TincupCPG]

The venom in Covenant did nothing to affect the White Gold EXCEPT to allow Covenant to use the Wild Magic extravagantly...in the desire that the more Covenant uses the Wild Magic he will become so powerful and unable to control the White Golf that he will destroy the Arch of Time in the simple act of trying to stop Foul. The Wild magic was always able to destroy the Arch, but Covenant did not know how to use it and certainly could not bring up "enough" Power to do so. The Venom allows that to happen. Which is the reason Covenant decided to NOT use Power and give Foul the ring...becuase he knew that Foul would not be able to use the ring as he thought he would.

Linden having issues using the White Gold is explained even by her in "The Runes of the Earth". She says that the only Power that she feels is "hers" is the Staff of Law. She feels that the Staff belongs to her. Which I happen to agree with. So, her using Wild Magic...while she can..is NOT HER natural tool. That priviledge belongs to Covenant. It is his ring and HE is the White Gold.

[wayfriend]

Am I the only one who read this a different way?

When Linden is summoned, she has visions of things that Joan has experienced and is experiencing.

Then she has a vision of a crisis at the One Tree rousing the Worm.

Isn't this Joan having the vision of rousing the Worm, and Linden is experiencing her experience?

This whole section of the story is absolutely rife with ambiguity. I have her son. Which 'her'? Whos son? Beware the half-hand. Covenant? Or Jeremiah?

I think it's quite possible that it is supposed to be ambiguous whether or not it is Linden or Joan having a vision of destroying the Earth with Wild Magic. And isn't Joan a much more likely candidate?

[Borillar]

It's my impression that the venom's purpose isn't simply to cause Covenant to lose control; it's that without the venom, Covenant lacks the inherent power to rend the Arch. In WGW, Findail says:

"By means of this venom the Despiser attempts the destruction of the Arch of Time, and that is no little thing. But it pales beside the fate which would befall the Earth and all life upon the Earth, were there no venom within you. You conceive yourself to be a figure of power, but in the scale of worlds you are not...Lacking the venom, you would be too small to threaten [the Despiser]...Therefore we bless the frustration or madness which inspired the gambit of this venom. Discontented in the prison of the Earth, the Despiser has risked his hope of freedom in the venom which gives you such might."

That's why I don't understand how Linden can be a threat without it. It may be, though, that the Arch is weakened by the caesures and such that it no longer can stand up to regular wild magic.

[wayfriend]

That's why I don't understand how Linden can be a threat without it. It may be, though, that the Arch is weakened by the caesures and such that it no longer can stand up to regular wild magic.

That's another argument in favor of my theory that it is Joan who endangers the Arch. Joan is possessed by a raver. If Foul could give Covenant the necessary strength, he could give Joan strength, too.

[TincupCPG]

Sure, i read that also. But the meaning I take from it is simply that the venom does not "increase" the Wild Magic's power.

Covenant tells Linden that the Ring is difficult to use "morally".

Which means that Covenant himself provides the reason he cannot unleash the full abilities of Wild Magic. It explains why he can barely make a fire at times and cannot use Wild Magic at all without a trigger.

The venom did 2 things. It acts as a trigger (which Covenant needs) and it chips away at Covenant's inability to use and/or control Wild magic. With Covenant unable to control himself he could use the Ring and destroy the Arch...which is exactly what Foul wants. Foul either knows Covenant himself will destroy it or he will realize what the venom is doing to him, become afraid or will refuse to use Wild Magic and then hand the ring over to Foul.

It is only because of Moral issues that Covenant finds it difficult to use the Ring. The venom takes away that fortitude. The ONLY thing that limits White Gold's Wild Magic is Covenant himself. That is what the venom does. Acts as a trigger and with each time Covenant uses the Ring it gets harder and harder to control and at same time much much easier to USE the Ring simply by decision of will. Covenant could, at any time, simply by the use of Wild Magic, destroy the Arch...both before and after the venom. It is becuase of moral issues that he cannot use power.

[CovenantJr]

[dlbpharmd]

Yes, excellent post - that's the way that I understand it.

[IVB]

In that case how is it that only LINDEN is restricted in the wild magic that she uses and not Joan? Joan is exerting wild magic as well, creating the caesures - why would Lord Foul permit that? Findail said, "should the Worm of the World's End be roused finding the Despiser without the white ring in his hand, would he not be consumed also?" (paraphrasing)

I thought about this as well, perhaps the Worm and the Arch are separate. If the worm is roused, the arch remains but the Earth is destroyed. Without the WG, Foul would be traped forever at best or ate by a raging worm at worst.

Also I think Joan is limmited by two things:
1. her sanity, there is no concious direction of her power
2. She is a tool and therefore limmited in her ability to affect the arch.

[MrKABC]

Well said Tin Cup!!! Great post.

I wonder if Lord Foul can somehow get Joan to surrender her ring to him - if that is the case it is freely given and he is free to attack the Arch.