Linden's power to destroy the Arch?

[wayfriend]

TinCup's post is good. But I disagree with it.

Covenant finds it hardto use the ring. Not impossible. And I don't think he would have any moral qualms about stopping Lord Foul.

Yes, the venom is a moral poison. It tears down the walls of conscience, if you will, that block the use of power in Covenant. But that is not the same as saying that Covenant could never pierce it on his own. That I will not credit.

[Aleksandr]

Did it never occur to Covenant that that wood was wood from the One Tree that he could potentially use to make a Staff?

I picked up on that right away when I first read TOT. In fact, in TWL when Vain slipped on the heels of the old Staff I realized that he would somehow become the new Staff.

The venom in Covenant did nothing to affect the White Gold EXCEPT to allow Covenant to use the Wild Magic extravagantly

Yet Findail seemed to indicate otherwise when he replied to Covenant’s question (“Why didn’t you just heal me of the venom?”) by stating that without the venom Covenant would be fairly effectless and incapable of opposing the Despiser, just as before Covenant (per Findail) could not have opposed Foul without the Ill-Earth Stone being in the picture. If all Covenant needed was a trigger he could have just kept Sunder’s Orcest on hand.
By the way, any ideas why Linden does not need a trigger? She can apparently call up the Wild Magic whenever she wants.



As for Joan, the caesures are no immediate threat to the Arch or Foul, so he probably intends to use them to force Linden (and Covenant?) into doing his will, much as he used the Sunbane in the 2nd Chronicles.

[Aleksandr]

I wonder if Lord Foul can somehow get Joan to surrender her ring to him - if that is the case it is freely given and he is free to attack the Arch.

But he still has to get past Covenant to do so. So he needs more than just a white gold ring (that didn't work at the end of the 2nd Chronicles). No he has to somehow manipulate TC into letting him destroy the Arch. TC has shown alreday that he will sacrifice himself to save Joan; what will he sacrifice to save her, and maybe Roger and Linden too?

[TincupCPG]

Cvenant could never pierce the "moral" block on his own, without a trigger? hasn't happened yet. But I agree that OF COURSE he can. HE is the Wild magic. He needs to learn that his own faults and frailties do not necessarily spell doom for those he loves and cares for. He still fears himself more than anything else. Still stuck in his mind that lepers are powerless to control or use power.

Covenant does not just need a trigger but the passion and desire to use the Wild Magic. Which he mostly denies himself. The venom gives Covenant an "easy" way to sacrifice the guilt and such that inhibits his use of the ring.

Linden does not need a trigger because she is NOT Covenant. I am notr Covenant, nor is anyone here in this forum. Also there is a PERFECT example of what Wild Magic can do in the hands of someone willing and not "scared" to use it: Remember when Hile Troy used Covenant's ring and was ready to wield the Wild magic simply by passion of desire? He needed no "trigger" also. Of course the Forrestal bitch slapped him down from that one because he knew that Troy could use the ring to deny him his "payment". It is simply Covenant that has issues with his own power becuase of what he is and what he has been through.
However, even with Avery (yuck) She CAN use the Wild magic...but it is not "her" power at all...it is Covenant's. Her "own" power is the new Staff of Law. She feels more comfortable with that then she does with the Wild magic.

[Jerico]

In LFB TC used the Wild magic to stop Drool's storm, yet he had no trigger. But I agree it's all in his mind, and who he is that he has trouble using it. It's like he needs Wild Magic Viagra. He's had 3500 years to think about it now. I wonder if he'll be able to use it without aid?

[TincupCPG]

I am not nitpicking...(well maybe I am)

In LFB...Covenant and Atiaran were "beseiged" by the storm, right?
Covenant, in a rare display of rage shouted at the clouds, "Hellfire! You can't do this to me! Without warning, just as his fury peaked, a huge white flash exploded beside him. He felt that a bolt of lightning had struck his left hand."

There are 2 possibilities here:

1) SRD was trying to lay down a foundation that extreme emotions and crisis can be what Covenant needs to use the White Gold.

2) this is more likely: The storm itself was not right, it was warped by Drool...I think it likely that the storm itself, coupled with Covenant's rage, acted as the trigger for the Wild magic. Since the Wild magic is not a "tool" but arises from his passions and desires, his wish was to have the storm over with...and basically the White Gold responded and the storm's menace was driven out.

[Jerico]

Yes, but after that TC started 'seeing' the Land as everyone else did. Up till then his Land-sight wasn't evident. It's like once he used the Ring he was in tune with the Land.
As far as the Storm being the trigger, that's pretty thin. He has always needed contact before.
I go more with number 1
He didn't know that he had power, therefore he used it. After he had time to realize he had power, between LFB and TIW he told himself he needed a trigger.

[Warmark Jay]

Seems to me that the crux of the argument is TC's realization/revelation at the end of WGW; that Covenant himself gives the white gold its ultimate potency. Others (Linden, Troy) can use wild magic to an extent, but that ultimate power derives from the fact that its origins are uniquely HIS. This is the importance of the symbolism of TC's ring being a wedding band; its purpose was unique, as it was made to fit (literally and symbolically) Covenant and Covenant alone. In a sense, a wedding band defines the wearer. In that, Linden can never hope to obtain that level of power - because the white gold is not, and cannot, truly be hers, even if given freely.

So the real question is not whether Linden will destroy the Arch; she can't. Joan, however, is a different story...

[IVB]

Yes, but after that TC started 'seeing' the Land as everyone else did. Up till then his Land-sight wasn't evident. It's like once he used the Ring he was in tune with the Land.
As far as the Storm being the trigger, that's pretty thin. He has always needed contact before.
I go more with number 1
He didn't know that he had power, therefore he used it. After he had time to realize he had power, between LFB and TIW he told himself he needed a trigger.

Not contact always. Proximity... remember the Earth blood? Passion is another trigger, remember the krill? With the storm you had both.

[Borillar]

To sum up a bit of what has been said up to now:

If Covenant is able to break the Arch without the help of the venom, then Findail was simply wrong in what he said. And of course that's possible! Findail pretty clearly stated that in his perception, Covenant lacked the raw power to challenge Foul, much less destroy the Arch, without the venom (and also said the only way Covenant was able to defeat Foul before was because of Foul's use of the Illearth Stone). But again, it's entirely possible that Findail doesn't really understand Covenant's relation to his ring, and what he's capable of. The Elohim always saw Linden, not Covenant, as the proper owner of the ring, which speaks at least partially to some misunderstanding on their part (although at least Infelice says something like "its mark lies deeply in him" or something like that).

Findail's miscomprehension could lie in the same camp as Kasreyn trying to get Covenant to give him the ring while under the geas; that's a ploy that I always imagine would never have worked, since the ring wouldn't have really been "freely" given.

In any case, I'm willing to discount what Findail said and accept that the venom simply removed barriers that Covenant created in himself. But I think it's also clear that that's not what Findail was saying. This, in fact, might make a worthy question for the GI (I was the one who asked SRD a similar question about how dead Elena was able to wield Covenant's ring in PTP when it had been taken from him by force).

[wayfriend]

But again, it's entirely possible that Findail doesn't really understand Covenant's relation to his ring, and what he's capable of.

That, other things aside, is exactly correct. The Elohim do not understand. They don't understand, and the Dead do: only Linden and Covenant working together, sharing the burden, and being who they are, can save the Earth.

This is why they say "You are the Sun-Sage. And you are not." and are thrown into confusion. The Earth has shown them the truth, but they don't understand it, their perceptions are distorted by who they are.

In the GI, SRD was asked "How/why Covenant’s dead would have answer to the Land’s need different than would be conceived by the Elohim", and SRD responded: Covenant's Dead are just a bit less selfish, and a whole lot less self-absorbed, than the Elohim. Fundamentally different beings think in fundamentally different ways.

And in an interview he stated: the second [Chronicles] is a test of sacrifice in relationships - Covenant can't save The Land alone in The Second Chronicles, and neither can Linden Avery. It takes what they can both give, and what they can both give up, to save The Land.

The Elohim are 'selfish' and 'self-absorbed', and so they cannot see a path which requires sharing the burden. They don't understand it. So they make the wrong choices, and in doing so, they come into conflict with Covenant and Linden, who are trying to make the right ones.

To come back to the point: The Elohim do not understand Covenant's role in the salvation of the Earth at all.

[I'm Murrin]

To come back to the point: The Elohim do not understand Covenant's role in the salvation of the Earth at all.

Hence, "Beware the Halfhand"? I'm wondering now - SRD says Covenant still has a role to play, lessons to learn - if the Elohim knew Covenant would play a role, would they trust him, knowing him to be dead, and taking into account the way they reacted to him last time around? It is true, they do not understand that Covenant is the White Gold Wielder - Linden cannot win without him, but perhaps they still insist he will betray the earth?

[drew]

The Elohim Fear Covenant. Foul probebly fears him now too. But both (the Elhoim and Foul) have no fear of Linden. They fell that they can manipulate her to no ends...that's what I figure they did in Elemsendene, they weren't honoring her and shunning TC, they were trying to get her to do their bidding, and get Covenant out of the picture. They kept bragging her up, and shooting him down, and now they are probebly going to do the same-possibly on a much larger scale, since they're warning everyone about Covenant.